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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:53 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:25 pm
Posts: 5339
Location: Downeast Maine
Car Model*:
I have a Gemmer box in my 67 IH Pickup which has an outer steering shaft tube slid over box's casting and tube passes from there through fire wall to steering wheel. Within that tube is a long input shaft to which steering wheel is nutted onto. In other words your box has a very long, 50" or so, input shaft protruding from box. It's all one big chunk. This stile of box was the norm for years in trucks, and cars until the feds decided it was healthier to have a collapsible steering column during a crash...

Seams one could source a right-hand drive box from another manufacture with the same architecture; mounted front or rear of axle and an output shaft dangling in the right way. Input shaft from your old box could be cut and grafted on to retrofit box via common hot-rod methods. I bet some crafty hot-rod guys could give some guidance on such a conversion. Jeeps come right hand drive, and those old white S10 based USPO trucks also right hand drive, and than there is the England, much closer to Texas than land of OZ (think shipping costs), and probably a richer selection of used steering boxes to pick over.

Now that I think about it, Lorrie Van implies English truck. I bet Mopar Here, maybe these guys' parts dept would have a lead, used some off the shelf box from their British parts bin to use in your van.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:11 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 870
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model*: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey Mr. W,
Sorry about not responding sooner. Didn't notice that the Thread had a Page 2.

wjajr wrote:
I have a Gemmer box in my 67 IH Pickup which has an outer steering shaft tube slid over box's casting and tube passes from there through fire wall to steering wheel.


Same situation with Lorrie, except the Tube passes through the Floor Board to the Steering Wheel.

Quote:
Within that tube is a long input shaft to which steering wheel is nutted onto.


Same with Lorrie.

Quote:
In other words your box has a very long, 50" or so, input shaft protruding from box.


It turns out that there are TWO Versions of the Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box. One is a "Short" Shaft, and one is a "Long" Shaft per what you are describing.

Quote:
It's all one big chunk. This stile of box was the norm for years in trucks, and cars until the feds decided it was healthier to have a collapsible steering column during a crash...


Seems like a "nutty" setup, but then again, they did stuff back in the mists of time that are strange by today's standards.

Quote:
Seams one could source a right-hand drive box from another manufacture with the same architecture; mounted front or rear of axle and an output shaft dangling in the right way. Input shaft from your old box could be cut and grafted on to retrofit box via common hot-rod methods.


That is what has become to be called "Plan C". Plan A is to actually find a Proper&Correct Unit. Plan B is to have the ORIGINAL Unit Rebuilt. Plan C is to adapt another RHD Manual Steering Gear Box.

Quote:
I bet some crafty hot-rod guys could give some guidance on such a conversion.


In this area, I am the "Crafty Hot-Rod Guy!

Quote:
Jeeps come right hand drive, and those old white S10 based USPO trucks also right hand drive,


Right. Have been tracking down ALL the RHD sources. Have found much, but we're not yet ready to go to Plan C, at least not for a bit. BTW, this Caper is scheduled for November, so we have a ways to go before finally deciding on what course of action MUST be taken.

Quote:
and than there is the England, much closer to Texas than land of OZ (think shipping costs), and probably a richer selection of used steering boxes to pick over.


Strangely, the UK has been of absolutely no help as a source. Seems they've never even HEARD of a "Manual" Steering Box!

Quote:
Now that I think about it, Lorrie Van implies English truck.


BINGO! :)

Quote:
I bet Mopar Here, maybe these guys' parts dept would have a lead, used some off the shelf box from their British parts bin to use in your van.


Will be thoroughly parsing all of the above references. Thanks for posting them.

Am waiting to hear back from a company (see HERE:)

http://www.straightlinesteering.com/Home%20page.htm

that has listed a Gemmer Y5D-375 Manual Steering Gear Box, which is listed in the 1967-1968 Dodge Truck Service Manual as being able to be used in a D500-600 Dodge Truck, as is the Gemmer Y4D-335. Am waiting to see if they have a RHD version. But even if they don't, there is the possibility that they might just have the Bearings, Bushings, Seals, and Gaskets with which to do a rebuild of the Gemmer Y4D-335 Unit. If they do that would MAYBE solve one of the problems that RedHead Steering Gears (see HERE:)

https://www.redheadsteeringgears.co

had as being the reason for not being able to rebuild Lorrie's ORIGINAL Unit.

We are, nonetheless, continuing to search and research this Caper. Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again for the response and references.

It's onward through the fog.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:26 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 870
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model*: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey All,
Sent the following Query to Straight Line Steering, Inc.:

Quote:
Hey Straight Line Steering, Inc.,
I am JC Allison, caretaker of Lorrie Van Haul, the ONLY known surviving 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle out of 3,500 built. See HERE:

http://www.allisonwonderlandcls.website ... home02.htm

Lorrie is in need of a RHD Manual Steering Gear Box.

The 1967-1968 Dodge Truck Factory Service Manual lists a Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box as being what is used in the 1967 Dodge P200, P300, P400, D400, D500-600-700, and PD500-600.

It also lists a Gemmer Y5D-375 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box as being used in the 1967 Dodge D500, D600 and PD600.

Here is the situation:

Have contacted Daniel Foster at RedHead Steering Gears. Daniel says he cannot find Bearings, Bushing, Seals, or Gaskets to rebuild Lorrie's Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box.

Have contacted Kal Uthe at Lares Corporation, and Kal says that they can "most likely" rebuild the Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box, but if they can't, it would mean that Lorrie Van Haul would be for all intents and purposed DEAD.

Am a member at the Slant Six Forum, and one of the other poster there recommended that I get in touch with YOU to see if you might be able to help Lorrie.

Have not yet taken Lorrie's Steering Gear Box out, and don't know if the Gemmer Y4D-335 has a Long or Short Shaft, nor have I seen any Casting or Stamped Numbers on the Unit, but have taken some JPGs of Lorrie's Unit, and am attaching them to this E-Mail.

Am planning on doing a COMPLETE Front Suspension, and Steering System rebuild on Lorrie in November. Am trying to get everything set up to do that at this time.

Would you happen to have a Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box? If you do, how much would it cost?

If you don't, would a Gemmer Y5D RHD Manual Steering Gear Box be a replacement for the Y4D-335? If it would, and you have one, how much would it cost?

If you have neither, would you be able to rebuild Lorrie's Gemmer Y4D RHD Manual Steering Gear Box? And if you can, how much would it cost?

If you can't, would you perchance have the Bearings, Bushing, Seals, and Gaskets to do a rebuild? And if you do, how much would they cost?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Am looking forward to your reply. Hope this finds YOU doing well.

Take care,
JCAllison


Got the following response from Ralph at Straight Line Steering:
Quote:
Hello, I can rebuild yours $695.00 I have rebuilt them in the past.
the rebuild will included new worm gear,roller.race cups,thrust bearings,sector seal,
3 day lead time once we received core,
Thank you,
Ralph


JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:37 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:25 pm
Posts: 5339
Location: Downeast Maine
Car Model*:
I'd jump on that Straight Line deal and be happy it can be rebuilt... No farting around re-engineering, welding, sourcing unseen parts that may or may not cobble up satisfactorily.

Ten years ago I had my PS box rebuilt in the Dart by Steer and Gear in Ohio, it was $450 with fright one way, $700 for something that goes right back in is reasonable. Divide $700 by 55 years and that's 13 bucks a year before the next rebuild is due in 2073. LOL

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:04 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 870
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model*: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
wjajr wrote:
I'd jump on that Straight Line deal and be happy it can be rebuilt...


Hey Mr. W.,
Was elated to receive the very PROMPT reply from Ralph at Straight Line Steering, Inc. It held out hope for Lorrie's Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box where OTHERS held out only doom and gloom.

Quote:
No farting around re-engineering, welding, sourcing unseen parts that may or may not cobble up satisfactorily.


There IS something to be said for not having to figure out how to pull a VERY iffy project back from the brink. And all would be well if the solution that made that possible was sure-fire. Alas. More on this a bit further on.

Quote:
Ten years ago I had my PS box rebuilt in the Dart by Steer and Gear in Ohio, it was $450 with fright one way,


And you had total confidence that it would work?

Quote:
$700 for something that goes right back in is reasonable.


Agreed, but only if there is total confidence that THAT would be the case, something which Ralph's response quoted in the Post to which you responded didn't seem to engender. BTW, when Lorrie was purchased in 1975, she cost $750.00 total!

Also, the $695.00 price made no mention about return shipping costs.

On the Straight Line Steering, Inc. webpage, there is the following paragraph found under Freight Policy:
Quote:
All Units are sold F.O.B. Straight Line Steering, and cores are to be returned freight prepaid. Your order will be shipped as per your instructions. UPS, Federal Express, common carrier, or commercial airline.


Googled the term F.O.B. and got THIS:
Quote:
FOB stands for “free on board” or “freight on board” and is a designation is used to indicate when liability and ownership of goods is transferred from a seller to a buyer. When used with an identified physical location, the designation determines which party has responsibility for the payment of the freight charges and at what point title for the shipment passes from the seller to the buyer.


So "F.O.B. Straight Line Steering" means that when the Unit is finished and is sitting at Straight Line Steering, it belongs to the owner of the Unit, and any shipping costs will be the owner's responsibility. So the $695.00 + (possibly tax) and shipping both ways would bring the cost up to approaching $800.00.

Quote:
Divide $700 by 55 years and that's 13 bucks a year before the next rebuild is due in 2073. LOL


It might be efficacious to include at this point a graphic that shows the kind of Steering Gear Box about which we are talking. The one shown is a LHD, but a RHD is the same KIND of mechanism: See HERE:

http://www.sweptline.org/steering63_68/19-01.gif

So what I'd like to do now is analyze what Ralph wrote, which will be once again quoted here:
Quote:
Hello, I can rebuild yours $695.00 I have rebuilt them in the past.
the rebuild will included new worm gear,roller.race cups,thrust bearings,sector seal,
3 day lead time once we received core, Thank you, Ralph


Due to strange punctuation, am unclear what the term "new worm gear,roller." means. Is Ralph saying that the rebuild includes:
1. A "NEW Worm Gear"? Or is it a "NEW Worm Gear Roller."? And if it is the latter, what is a NEW Worm Gear Roller? Is THAT the Bearing Type?

2. Next, the term "Roller.Race Cups" are in the Illustration, shown as being "Cage & Roller", with the drawing indicating that those are the Bearings, and the Cups are the parts that hold the Cage & Roller Bearings in place.

3. Alas, the exploded view referenced above has no listing for "Thrust Bearings". Am going to assume what Ralph intended that to mean is the "Sector Shaft Bushings".

So here is what I have concluded that Ralph at Straight Line Steering is proposing to do for $695.00 + tax and shipping: Install Two NEW Bearing Assemblies (Cages, Rollers, and Cups), Two NEW Sector Shaft Bushings, and a NEW Oil Seal. Then, of course, the Unit must be properly adjusted per the instructions in the 1967 Dodge Factory Shop Manual, of which there is a copy here.

Would you agree with the foregoing?

The looming question is: Will NEW Bearing Assemblies, NEW Sector Shaft Bushings, and a NEW Sector Shaft Oil Seal take the SLOP out of Lorrie's Steering?

We now come to the "What Ifs". What if the Worm Gear is worn out? What if the Gears on the Sector Shaft are worn out? Those two parts are what caused the OTHER rebuilders of Steering Gear Boxes to defer on the project.

And seeing as to how the Worm Gear and Sector Shaft are probably made of "Unobtainium", taking Lorrie's Gemmer Y4D-335 out and shipping it to San Jose California is looking less and less like something I'm willing to do.

Were I able to find the "Cage&Rollers", and the appropriate "Cups", and an "Oil Seal", I am almost certain that I could install them properly.

So the situation is this: Am going to have to think this over.

Straight Line Steering, Inc. is by all the reviews that have been found an honorable, and competent organization. BUT, even so, they cannot guarantee that Lorrie's Gemmer Y4D-335 RHD Manual Steering Gear Box will be rebuildable. But that's NOT their fault.

A final thought... If all that is going to be done is install two Bearing assembly, two Bushing, and an Oil Seal, without any assurance that it will solve the problem, $695.00 + tax and shipping DOES seem to be excessive. Nuff said.

Anyway, Mr. W. Thanks for the response and your positive attitude is commendable!

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

Take care.
JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:46 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:37 pm
Posts: 100
Location: honolulu, hawaii
Car Model*:
Does the drawing for the gear box show any parts that could be adjusted to remove the play?
Maybe you could try adjusting.

Also play when turn steering wheel could be loose front wheel bearings, worn tie rods, loose gear box
mounting bolts. If the problem is with these parts maybe you don't have to rebuild the gear box.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 870
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model*: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
makapipi wrote:
Does the drawing for the gear box show any parts that could be adjusted to remove the play?

Hey Mr. M.,
There seems to be ONLY one adjustment available.

Quote:
Maybe you could try adjusting.


Have over the years adjusted the one adjustment, and it has finally reached as far as it will go.

Quote:
Also play when turn steering wheel could be loose front wheel bearings, worn tie rods, loose gear box, mounting bolts. If the problem is with these parts maybe you don't have to rebuild the gear box.


Have checked and double checked everything. The looseness in the Steering is ALL in the area between the Steering Wheel, and the Sector Shaft. The Shaft from the Steering Wheel THROUGH the Worm Gear IS where the looseness occurs.

It appears that Straight Line Steering, Inc., is in order to rebuild the Gemmer Y4D-335 going to custom-make a NEW Worm Gear. Am going to confirm that with Straight Line Steering with no ambiguity or vagueness. If THAT is the case, the $695.00 + Tax&Shipping isn't out of line.

Anyway, everything happens when it's supposed to happen. Hopefully that will be the case in this instance.

Thanks for taking the time, and making the effort to respond. It is much appreciated.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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