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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:46 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:19 pm
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Location: Florida
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Greg Ondayko wrote:


If your preference is calm, and its a benefit, I'll show you calm. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:50 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:36 am
Posts: 581
Location: Rome, GA
Car Model*: 1963 Dart 270, 1980 D150
I just can't decide.....I think I will just reinforce one of my LCAs. :D

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Freedom is for fun.
-P. J. O'Rourke


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:50 pm
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Location: So California
Car Model*: 64 Plymouth Valiant
Which side?

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:07 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Rome, GA
Car Model*: 1963 Dart 270, 1980 D150
The passenger side of course, to offset driver weight.

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Freedom is for fun.
-P. J. O'Rourke


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:04 am 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:19 pm
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Location: Florida
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drgonzo wrote:
I just can't decide.....I think I will just reinforce one of my LCAs. :D


Which Hemisphere?

I was pondering last night on this issue, not to beat a dead horse deader then it it already is, but I think we can agree the LCA serves two primary purposes, partially to locate the wheel through the lower BJ, and support that corners car weight.
The mentioned add on gussets, often are mentioned to stiffen, etc the LCA, and I submit it does almost nothing to benefit locating the wheel, and does slightly stiffen ( to a point that cannot be measured?) the LCA arm in supporting weight of the car. The result of my last nights thinking, this stiffening is I think somewhat explained by this well known analogy, that most 1/4 Hex bolts can be torqued properly with a 1/4 ratchet, a 3/8" ratchet is a stiffer tool for the job, but does not increase tightness of the bolt, and a 1/2" ratchet is still a more stiffer tool, with the same end result of no tighter bolt. The 1/4" bolt in this analogy is the the TB, the ratchet the LCA. So if you are the person who uses the 1/2" ratchet on a 1/4" bolt, the LCA gusset should be your ticket.

Of course I suspect there are a plethora of other advantages, others will share as the need arises.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:56 pm
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Location: TEXAS
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http://www.firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_lower_control_arm_reinforcement.html
You non-believers probably think you know more than reputable vendors, and that's "o.k."!
and P.S.- (Straightening extra) :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:23 am 
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TBI Slant 6

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My thinking on the matter would likely change if someone was paying me $200ea for painting them pink and allowing them to think that makes them more aerodynamic.

Sorry, a vendor selling an item for profit IMO does not justify a solution by itself, but I do have some small carburetor magnets that will double you mpg if you are interested. :lol:

This reinforcement solution has been on the market for nearly 20 years, got to get my charging battery off the concrete floor. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:50 pm
Posts: 6031
Location: So California
Car Model*: 64 Plymouth Valiant
OMG, you're charging a battery on the garage floor...…….

:roll:

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Ed

64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Quote:
charging a battery on the garage floor
with your
Quote:
carburetor magnets
might be a problem.

_________________
1964 Dart GT


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:44 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Houston
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Yeah....the fact that a reputable vendor sells them doesn't mean they're any good for me or you. Maybe they sell them for Pike's Peak racers who just know they're going to land, at times, on the LCA's and want some extra beef in that area.

Or maybe they sell them because they know it will help transfer money from your wallet to theirs. I know I learned that the hard way when Suzanne Somers talked me into buying a ThighMaster.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:12 am 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:19 pm
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Location: Florida
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This is free enterprise. Supply and demand. If a customer wants to pay a vendor for a product, why does the vendor care what the reason or lack of reason is? Not sure this vendor, admittedly reputable, makes any performance claims. Fact remains, no one has shown that this area needs or requires or benefits from additional gusseting, in any real world conditions our cars endure. I am not interested in changing anyone's mind on the issue, but countering with a logic based discussion of unsupported claims, for the benefit of others still pondering this solution, I believe is informative. I don't mean to discourage any vendors business ventures. I also believe a lot of blowback here is really based on just confirmation bias. A common condition most of us share to some degree.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:43 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
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I think the choice to stiffen suspension components needs to be made with the intended use of the vehicle in mind.
Part of that choice, price and feasibility would be other components of the consideration, would be the design requirements
in effect when the vehicle was developed.

I find it amusing that it is generally accepted that sub frame connectors although certainly not a required upgrade
are a worth wile addition to about any A body. The sub frame connectors eliminate creeks and squeeks and generally improve the
car's handling. However a move to strengthen the connector between the torsion bar and the tire-wheel assembly is not
good for anyone. That is curious.

It appears that somehow the Chrysler engineers that did the lower control arms were really smart, saw the future with sticky radial tires,
super shocks, large diameter sway and control bars, and the engineers that did the rest of the unibody ( the ones that left
out the sub frame connectors) were not so smart. I don't think so.

Again, the bottom line is, chassis mods depends upon intended use and the robustness level desired.

anyway, here is a neat video that shows the front suspension of an A body at speed through turns.
It is interesting to watch the side wall of the tire move in and out across the wheel. That momentum
force is being channeled to the tire through the upper and lower control arms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je5oeamQ_uw

There are new after market tubular upper control arms available that are stiffer than the stock UCA's.
I do not know of any new after market lower control arms.
Hence there will be people that see a need to stiffen the OE LCA, for a specific intended use.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:26 am 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:19 pm
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I'm willing to give it another go, but would like to know first if you read any/all of my previous replies on this subject, and maybe point to something specific that is unfounded in your opinion. Using chassis stiffness and LCA as examples of equal design solutions is on rather then ice IMO. One thing i am going to harp on, the LCA only has two primary functions regarding its robustness, transfer vertical forces to the tires from the TB, and control lateral cornering forces, which are shared as mentioned by the UCA, nearly everything is else minor.

So is someone making the case the torsion bar is deflecting/bending the LCA with the vertical loads, and /or is the LCA stretching or compressing from the cornering loads?

I thought the 1/4"-3/8"-1/2" drive ratchet was a pretty useful easy to understand accurate analogy on the vertical loads. If one thinks the LCA is compressing or stretching, make your case.

And getting slightly off topic, I know of no aftermarket UCA's that are stiffer then OEM's, maybe lighter, maybe more clearance, maybe glossier, better alignment, etc, but not more robust. I'm also discounting all marketing sales /antidote BS


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:50 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:03 pm
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Location: IRWIN PA
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https://www.speedwaymotors.com/QA1-5230 ... gJmuPD_BwE

Lower arms. I would not buy these however.

Greg

_________________
Greg Ondayko
69 Dart http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 2560
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model*:
Quote:
LCA is compressing or stretching


go back and look at the initial video that was posted,
there you will see what holds the two halfs of the LCA together.
The 1/8 thick plate of steel, that is added (if it is that much) would not do much to
affect compression or stretching, but allows one to align the two halfs to minimize
the play around the torsion bar mount and to certainly allow the two half to stay
where they were set and not pry open from the bottom side or from around the torsion bar mount.
Again, strengthening the LCA adds robustness, for those that run sticky tires, large sway bars
and expect to explore some limits of cornering. No one said that you need to do it.

This would be very similar to welding up a K frame
and reinforcing the steering box mount. Another item that for me checks all three of the boxes
1) it is affordable ,, yes check
2) it is with the realm of something I can do ,, yes check
3) directionally it is the right thing to do,, yes check

and my comment concerning the general strength of A body structure and component robustness
as designed is valid.
Designs for families of components, designed about the same point in time to be used in the same family
(the uni body chassis is the 'family' in this discussion) will be subject to the same general loading and durability requirements
that were written when the design was developed - tested - released for production.

if some individual component ends up being really strong when compared to the other parts that surround it, that is possible only because
1) the part is a shared design with something that needs higher strength, and there is some savings available due to volume production to share the design across platforms,
2) a mistake was made in the design review process and a potential cost savings opportunity to take money out was missed

and your 1/4 inch vs 1/2 ratchet is a perfect analogy, assuming the 1/2 inch ratchet has a longer lever, the 1/2 inch ratchet adds robustness and allows the proper torque to be attained
with less effort. Assuming that more torque is needed,, ie sticker tires, larger torsion bars, super shocks,,,, the 1/4 ratchet would no longer be appropriate and the additional robustness
as provided by the 1/2 ratchet would be needed.

As written your analogy only makes sense as a counter point if you had used the word 'socket', as a 1/2 in drive socket adds nothing to the process that a 1/4 inch socket would provide if standard 1/4 drive torque is the goal.
If more than 1/4inch drive torque is desired, the use of a 3/8 inch drive socket would be recommended or 1/2 if the torque level requires it.


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