Hello all

I've got two problems with my /6.
I have a massive vacuum leak and signs of coolant in the intake plenum and runners.
I think it's a leak in the water heating jacket under the plenum, the guy that now owns Clifford Performance says he doesn't think it's the intake.

I've never seen signs of this much rusty water in an intake because usually, the intake flows lots of air in the other direction.

There does not appear to be water in the oil or oil in the water and when you dribble gas down the carb it runs fine.

It will only start briefly with what the accelerator pump squirts into the manifold and will not idle.

I would suspect a blown head gasket but the engine still runs really good. No swapping holes, no missing.

Has anyone here ever seen coolant in an ordinary non-water heated /6 intake manifold like this?

If the plenum above the water chamber has eroded, which it could over time and antifreeze that isn't aluminum compatible, then coolant from that chamber could be drawn into the intake. The air/fuel mixture is pulled into the cylinders, so it's under vacuum, not pressure, and acts like a big straw and if your plenum is cracked to the point of coolant seepage that could be your problem. I would disconnect the water source from the intake and see if it stops. If it continues with no water going to it then your problem is probably deeper inside.

_________________
There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!

It is. Either that, or somebody in Transporter Room Three played a prank on you and beamed some coolant into your intake plenum.

The guy that now owns Clifford Performance is a notorious lie-bag.

No, it doesn't happen. There's no path for it.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

The below is the email thread between myself and the guy that owns Clifford Performance now.

I came up with a way to isolate and find this leak(s) and he told.me flat out if I plug off the water jacket I will have to buy a new intake. When I asked him why, he didn't answer me.

The radiator and most of the cooling system is empty right now. I told him that and that I was just going to clamp the inlet and outlet hoses temporarily and try to start the car with a newly rebuilt carburetor.
This way I could see if the water jacket is the source of the vacuum leak. He said doing that will ruin the intake.

I've tried to imagine why doing this would ruin the intake and I can't. Anyone else here have a clue?


"Do not plug the water jacket or you will be ordering a new intake"



'From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 11:06 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket

No way is the water jacket causing a vacuum leak.

Larry 6=8

> On Feb 13, 2023, at 10:10 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Larry
>
> Noted. I haven't done anything with it yet because I haven't got the carb back yet.
>
> Can you please tell me why it would damage the intake to temporarily shut the water off to the intake?
> I was thinking of clamping the hoses just long enough to see if it stopped the vacuum leak. I wasn't going to drive it like that.
>
> As you can see, every vacuum port except the metering block vac port for the distributor has a fresh rubber port cap on it.
> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 6:26 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>
> Do not plug the water jacket or you will be ordering a new intake.
>
> Do you have a PCV valve going to the carb or intake? This will cause a vacuum leak.
>
> Take it off if it is still around.
>
> Larry 6=8
>
>> On Feb 10, 2023, at 10:08 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
>>
>> I'm hunting for a massive vacuum leak that won't even let the carb idle circuit work. As it is now, the car won't even start or idle unless we dribble gas down the carburetor.
>>
>> I'm plugging the water jacket inlet and outlet off temporarily just to see if the vacuum leak goes away.
>>
>> I also need to move the car about twenty feet from where it is partially blocking the driveway.
>>
>> If it is a cracked water jacket, then I open it back up, drain anything that's in there, dry it out with an airhose and apply the Dykem to the intake plenum.
>>
>> Then I get my little lighted endoscope (see url) out and put the right angle inspection mirror on it and feed it into the water inlet and look for blue dye bleeding through and a crack.
>>
>> Why would this cause more problems than I have now?
>>
>> If I can locate the crack and depending on where it is, I may be able to fix it without taking the manifold off the engine.
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PB ... UTF8&psc=1
>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 6:09 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>
>> It could be the water jacket started leaking into the intake. If you plug it now, gas will go into the water jacket and cause some serious problems.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Larry 6=8
>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>> I think what I'll do is put 3/8" MNPT pipe plugs in the inlet and outlet of the water jacket. Then put the newly rebuilt carb back on it, try to start the car and see if the vacuum leak goes away.
>>>
>>> If it does, I'll pull the carb and adapter back off and put some blue Dykem layout dye mixed with acetone on the floor of the plenum, then stick that endoscope in the water jacket and look for the Dykem bleeding through.
>>>
>>> Here are a couple more pics of the plenum. Doesn't that look like dried rusty water to you?
>>> The car only ran for less than a minute with bad gas in it.
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>> Jon.
>>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 6:04 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>>
>>> I don’t believe that would happen but check it out anyway. Tack weld the intake if cracked.
>>>
>>> Larry 6=8
>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2023, at 11:51 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for getting back to me.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the power valve is an 8.7.
>>>> The car has never had zinc in the oil.
>>>>
>>>> I had some old gas in the car and we have a hand pump type aspirator and we pumped and siphoned all the old gas out, put Star Bright tank cleaner in three gallons of fresh gas and put that in it.
>>>> We let that sit for 24 hours then siphoned all that out again. We did that process twice.
>>>>
>>>> Then we put a new fuel pump and fuel filter on it.
>>>>
>>>> I had had a glass fuel filter with a plastic cage and plastic screen in it that disintegrated into dust and got pumped straight into the newly rebuilt carburetor.
>>>> I pulled the float bowls off and cleaned them out and put the carb back together. The car still would not start and would not idle unless we dribbled gas into the carb. The engine was making vacuum leak noises.
>>>>
>>>> We pulled the carb off again and I gave it to an old friend that has been rebuilding carbs for forty years.
>>>> He pulled the entire carb apart and found a little bit of dirt in the metering blocks.
>>>> We put the carb back on, checked to see that all the unused vacuum ports were plugged off.
>>>> The car still would not start without manually adding gas and still would not idle. It was still making vacuum leak noises.
>>>>
>>>> I pulled the carb off again and then pulled the 4BBL adapter plate off and checked the gasket and it was fine.
>>>> Then I noticed all the gack in the intake plenum and it looks to me very much like rusty coolant residue.
>>>>
>>>> BTW. When the car quit down the street the first time, we had put Zerex radiator flush in it and were trying to run it around the block to get the flush distributed through the system. Since the carb was to be pulled off and sent out to be looked at, we drained all the water and flush out of the radiator etc. The cooling system had mostly air in it when we noticed the vacuum leak noises.
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking what I do next is pull the intake off and have it soda blasted and I should check it internally for cracks. I also have a lighted endoscope I can use to look in the water heating chamber under the plenum.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for your input.
>>>>
>>>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 6:48 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>>>
>>>> Check the power valve, it should be 8.7
>>>>
>>>> But the baking of fuel is something that could be anything.
>>>>
>>>> Check for noise under the valve cover.
>>>>
>>>> Did you add zinc to your oil at any time?
>>>>
>>>> Larry 6=8
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 7, 2023, at 11:55 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Larry
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't recall the car ever overheating and it has always had 50-50 antifreeze in the coolant.
>>>>> The car has a Holley # 0-8007 4160 390 CFM 4BBL as recommended by Clifford. It's been on there for at least fifteen years.
>>>>> I did a few tweaks on the carburetor jetting and power valve to get rid of an off idle stumble and it always ran really good until lately.
>>>>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 8:28 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>>>>
>>>>> How did this get so hot??
>>>>>
>>>>> Something is very wrong..
>>>>>
>>>>> What carb are you running?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not try to use a stock carb on our high flow intake. It will not work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry 6=8
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 7, 2023, at 1:18 AM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Larry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was waiting to find out more about the problem with the Challenger engine before biting the bullet and ordering that adapter plate gasket from you.
>>>>>> It appears I have a bigger problem than just that gasket.
>>>>>> I've been going around and around with the guy that does my carburetor rebuild work because I couldn't get the car to idle no matter what I tried. I told the guy some of the really strange things the engine has been doing and all the ignition and fuel system parts I have replaced.
>>>>>> He told me he thought it must be a massive vacuum leak. Looks like he was probably right about that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you give these pictures a look and give me an idea what I ought to do next?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for any help you can give me on this problem. It has been driving me nuts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon.
>>>>>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:45 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That’s with our discount with UPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What state are you in??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6=8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 1, 2023, at 12:12 PM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YIKES. You ain't kidding.
>>>>>>> Is that hourly shipping via the space shuttle, installed with a baby diaper and rosewater carwash ?
>>>>>>> Holy sheepshit Batman.
>>>>>>> From: Larry Millwee <larry@cliffordperformance.com>Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:50 AMTo: Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: Adapter plate gasket
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes we make those for 6=8 intakes only.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CP-4 $6.00
>>>>>>> Shipping UPS $18.00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That makes me think that I am in the wrong business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry 6=8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:31 PM, Jon <greatscot21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I need one of the adapter plate gaskets for the four hole adapter plate to intake manifold for the Holley 4160 390 cfm four bbl on a Mopar 225 /6.
>>>>>>>> This is the open center gasket that goes between the plate and the intake manifold.
>>>>>>>> If you don't sell them separately, can I have the manufacturer and part no. please?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>

How about disconnecting the water hoses from the intake. Capping one of the connections, and hooking up a vacuum pump to the other connection. Pull a vacuum, and see if it holds.

_________________
Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170

That would be a good idea except I don't have a way of pulling a vacuum. I have a Stant radiator tester with a leak down gauge which would do the same thing but neither method shows where the leak is actually located.

I could probably pressurize the water jacket and spray Windex or soapy water into the plenum and look for bubbles but that leaves no permanent witness mark to weld over later.

If clamping the water intake and outlet hoses stops the vacuum leak, then I open the water jacket on both sides and use an air hose to blow all the coolant water out and dry it.

Then I apply Dykem blue layout dye mixed with acetone to the floor of the intake plenum.
Then I take my endoscope and cellphone camera and stick it into the water jacket and look for cracks or holes with blue dye seeping through.

The guy that now sells these Clifford systems says plugging up the water jacket and starting the engine briefly will ruin the intake and I don't get why.
Maybe I'm missing something.

Larry says a lot of things that don't make sense, or are total lies. When he is corrected, he doesn't listen and fix the problem. It is a shame Jack didn't make provision for the company to continue as it was when he was alive.

_________________
Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170

I cannot see how that will ruin anything to plug the water jacket. I would blow it out with compressed air (or your mouth), let it dry a little, then put plugs in. I have run those intakes with plugs in the jackets for years and 10s of thousands of miles.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines

Like Lou said, he and many people have driven these intakes and other water heated ones with plugs in them and even with no plugs at all without issues. Sounds like he's trying to scare you into buying and intake by convincing you that you did something wrong if you disregard his advice....

_________________
There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!

+1 My Clifford is plugged.

_________________
“Buy the ticket, take the ride.”
― Hunter S. Thompson

You may have a crack letting water in, but that is not going to be the issue with it not starting or having a massive air leak. If it would be big enough to let that much air in then it would be sucking water into the engine just as fast.

_________________
2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!

12.70 @ 104.6

I sort of wonder if he actually believes this crapola he's shovelling, or if it's just a slightly modified version of a caught little kid's dog-ate-my-homework desperation.

Because it won't.

You're being lied to.

Even if this were true, which it isn't, I would like to hope you sure as all hell wouldn't be ordering a new intake from him!

Horsepuckey. No, it won't. The whole reason why we have PCV valves rather than just an open line from the crankcase to the intake tract is so there won't be a big ol' vacuum leak.

Wrong. PCV = only good, not bad. Remove PCV = only bad, not good.

Donno what you have in mind, but the methods that come to my mind all amount to a major gamble on your engine's continued health.

He's contradicting himself.

Um…nnnno.

Speaking of lies. "Enzyme-based fuel tank cleaner"? No, I rather think not.

Glass fuel filters were a bad idea when they were available. They're even a worse idea now all you can get is Chinese trinkets shaped like fuel filters. Use a real, metal fuel filter.


Radiator flush is a light-duty cleaner for use on lightly-dirty radiators. Nowhere near adequate for the amount of crud and mud in the average old car. But that's beside the point: driving the car doesn't make any kind of radiator flush or cleaner work better than running the engine in the driveway.

And in this slide, we see ol' Pants-On-Fire Larry tossing out random nonsense to point your attention away from the actual problem.

If absolutely nothing else, learn the lesson of this experience: do not give Clifford any more of your money. This what you're experiencing is not a one-off. This is what they do: bad advice, blameshifting, and shoddy products. That's not how it was 35 years ago, but…this is 2023.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.