Slant *        6        Forum
Home Home Home
The Place to Go for Slant Six Info!
Click here to help support the Slant Six Forum upgrade!
It is currently Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:45 am

All times are UTC-08:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Let's build a Sandman!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:56 pm 
Offline
TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Pauls Valley, OK
Car Model*: 1975 Dodge D100
Alright, I'm just about ready to get the wheels turning on this build!

What I have is a 1964 225. I brought it home in December and have been carefully disassembling and prepping it for this build since then. At this point I have measured the deck height (0.168") and the combustion chambers (61cc), calculating a SCR of 7.68:1. The engine appears in great condition overall, the bearings were all in good shape, I measured the cylinders at 3.413". I've torn down the head and have begun cleaning up the ports, runners, and combustion chambers. The block is also bare, the only thing remaining in place are the cam bearings.

This engine will go into my 1975 D100 Pickup with 727 auto and 3.55:1 rear. I'm looking for peppy street performance with not much concern for mileage since this is not my daily driver. I won't be pulling a trailer or working the truck too hard in any way. I do want to be able to run on pump gasoline and work with my existing torque converter (new flexplate required?).

Here's my plan based mostly off of what I have learned here on this board. Please feel free to offer and advice or guidance along the way. I'm looking for a target SCR of 9:1. To accomplish this, I've calculated that I will need to lose about 0.110 between the block and the head. I was thinking about getting most of this shaved off the head shaved first, also installing some larger valves (1.70"I, 1.44"E). Then, at this point, measure the chambers again to determine how much to cut from the block to arrive at the target SCR. Does that sound like a good course of action? The plan for this head also includes 340 springs. Is there any machining required to make these fit? I measured the spring seats and according to the dimensions I found online, the 340 springs will "just fit". Also, the 225 spring retainers, will they work with the 340 springs?
Like I mentioned earlier, the block looks real good, no scratches or other damage visible to the naked eye in the cylinders. My measurement was 0.013" over stock, at what point is an overbore required? For budget considerations I would like to get by with cutting out that ridge and honing the cylinders and not have to purchase new pistons. These bigger valves should work with a stock bore, right? I've heard about bore notches. Is that something the average DIY engine builder can do in his or her home shop, or will the machine shop be the place to do this? I've looked online a little and cannot find any instructions for doing this at home.
I'm beginning to understand about camshafts. The plan for this engine includes having the current camshaft reground. I know the intake valve closing event has big influence on the DCR, which I understand is desirable to be at 8:1 to operate efficiently on pump gas. What other considerations need to be made when selecting a cam grind? To someone with not much experience looking at the cam numbers and interpreting the combinations for the desired outcome, the list of options is pretty staggering! I could really use some help in this area.
Like I've said in the other threads, I plan to run this with my existing parallel two barrel manifold. My current carburetor is a Motorcraft 2150, 1.08" venturi, 287 cfm. Will this carb be enough to get the most out of this build, or will I need an increase in cfm?
I'm running a stock exhaust manifold for the time being. I'm working on a modified rear half, keeping my eyes open for an inexpensive (used, abused) Dutra Dual front section. The rest of the system is straight, 2-1/4" with a glasspack dumping right in front of the left rear tire.
Long thread, I know, sorry. :oops: These are questions I've been wanting to ask for quite a while and now seems to be the right time. I'm sure there are things that I haven't mentioned. Please let me know what else I need to consider.
Thank you all,

_________________
1975 Dodge D100 225 c.i., HEI, Parallel 2 bbl Motorcraft 2150, 727 auto, 9.25" 3.55:1
Image


Last edited by and739 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:04 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 1563
Location: Salem, Oregon
Car Model*: 58 Plymouth Plaza 2dr, 63 Valiant Signet 200 2dr
I'll let the folks who can speak to the performance better than I respond to the build specific questions for performance.

What I will say, is (unless the 727 is different than what I recall) that there is no way you are putting a 1964 225 in front of a 727, or even a similar model year 904. The snout on the torque converter is too large for the end of a pre-68 crank. To use that block, you will need to find a 1968 to 1975 forged crank with the larger diameter pocket.

The swap can work the other way around (later engine to early transmission) but it requires an additional ring which takes up the gap left between the large crank pocket and the small torque converter snout.

~THOR~

_________________
1958 Plymouth Plaza 2 door Club Sedan
1963 Plymouth Valiant Signet 200 HT - "CL4P-TP"
Licensed Auto Appraiser - RevItUp Classic Appraisals
President - Cherry City Bombers CC
Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:07 pm 
Offline
EFI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:25 am
Posts: 419
Location: Springtucky OR
Car Model*:
I only have comments on a couple of points.

The stub on your 77 torque converter won't fit into the pocket in the end of the 64 crank. Someone will probably chime in and say if it is customary to enlarge the pocket.

At 0.013" clearance your cylinder bores are worn out. It's 2/3 of the way to the next piston size - 0.020"

EDIT: Duh... 727 transmission. As I understand it there was either a special Slant Six 727 transmission or some rare adapter that could mate it with the 225.

_________________
--> Check out my FI Turbo build <--
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:14 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 1563
Location: Salem, Oregon
Car Model*: 58 Plymouth Plaza 2dr, 63 Valiant Signet 200 2dr
ProCycle wrote:
EDIT: Duh... 727 transmission. As I understand it there was either a special Slant Six 727 transmission or some rare adapter that could mate it with the 225.



I believe his is the Slanty 727 Trans from the factory... based on his signature line.

~THOR~

_________________
1958 Plymouth Plaza 2 door Club Sedan
1963 Plymouth Valiant Signet 200 HT - "CL4P-TP"
Licensed Auto Appraiser - RevItUp Classic Appraisals
President - Cherry City Bombers CC
Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:45 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7355
Location: SW Washington
Car Model*: 1954 Dodge C1-B8
.013" is a lot of bore wear considering the first oversize is .020". Measure the bottom of the bores and see what the taper is. If you have too much taper it will pump oil and lose compression.

If you want to keep the '64 crankshaft you'll need to have the crank pocket machined to the larger ID to accommodate the nose of the torque converter. Also, the '64 head doesn't have the better combustion chamber, but that's not a big deal.

1.70"/1.44" valves fit stock bores, but your engine almost certainly needs to be re-bored.

Static compression ratio isn't a starting point, but an end point. Pick the RPM range you want, then the intake closing point and overlap. With those and the correct lobe separation angle you can find your intake duration. Once you have your intake closing point you can work backwards from your 8:1 dynamic compression ratio to the static compression ratio. Chances are it's not quite what you think it should be unless you're name is Dutra.

Chances are you'll end up with something like Oregon Cam Grinding 819 on the intake and 818 on the exhaust with a 108° lobe separation installed at a 101° intake centerline. I don't know what static compression you need for 8:1 dynamic. Also the 12" A727 torque converter is a drag. Get an 11", like the A904.

Your current carburetor is a fine choice.

Considering what the '64 engine needs (most everything) you're probably money ahead to build the original engine and skip the extra crankshaft work.

_________________
Joshua


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:24 pm 
Offline
EFI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:25 am
Posts: 419
Location: Springtucky OR
Car Model*:
THOR wrote:
I believe his is the Slanty 727 Trans from the factory... based on his signature line.

~THOR~


Ahh... Yup!

_________________
--> Check out my FI Turbo build <--
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:29 pm 
Offline
TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Pauls Valley, OK
Car Model*: 1975 Dodge D100
THOR wrote:
ProCycle wrote:
EDIT: Duh... 727 transmission. As I understand it there was either a special Slant Six 727 transmission or some rare adapter that could mate it with the 225.



I believe his is the Slanty 727 Trans from the factory... based on his signature line.

~THOR~


Yep, that's the one!

Even though it's not a lot of good news so far, thanks everyone for the advice.
I'll go talk to my machinist and see what he says about machining the crank pocket. I can weigh the cost of the work on the crank vs. an appropriate crank kit that will come with the bearings too. Anybody have any experience with an aftermarket crank kit?

_________________
1975 Dodge D100 225 c.i., HEI, Parallel 2 bbl Motorcraft 2150, 727 auto, 9.25" 3.55:1
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:33 pm 
Offline
EFI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Houston
Car Model*:
A 727 probably consumes half the HP that a Slant Six puts out, lol

If peppy is what you want, lose it for a 904 with the lower gearset and a smaller converter.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:55 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7355
Location: SW Washington
Car Model*: 1954 Dodge C1-B8
GregCon wrote:
A 727 probably consumes half the HP that a Slant Six puts out, lol

If peppy is what you want, lose it for a 904 with the lower gearset and a smaller converter.


I concur. In 1997 I swapped a 727 into my '74 D100 to replace the manual 3-speed. Even though the engine would stall the converter at a respectable 1600 RPM the truck was one of the slowest vehicles I have ever owned. I replaced that truck with a 318 powered B300 and it was far, far better.

_________________
Joshua


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:04 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 12316
Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model*: 68 Valiant
I used a crank kit from I think Car Quest on my old motor. It worked fine. Mike Jeffrey mic'd it when I had him freshen the motor up and it was still in good shape.

_________________
Official Cookie and Mater Tormentor.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:14 am 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:08 am
Posts: 13722
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Car Model*:
That carb will be plenty large for what you are trying to accomplish. Do some pocket porting on the head with those larger valves to get more flow and more HP/tq. Others here have you started on the rest, it appears.

Since you will not be towing or using this for huge loads, I also recommend a 904 trans. It will be plenty strong if built right or you have a good used one.

Lou

_________________
"You mean you still have a Slant 6 in that thing?"


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:45 am 
Offline
TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Pauls Valley, OK
Car Model*: 1975 Dodge D100
Thanks again fellas. I had never considered the 904 being a better fit for my application. I will be looking into that as well.
I just checked some online sources for a crank kit. Most auto parts stores seem to have the same kit offerings with prices pretty much inline with one another. Autozone currently has an online order, ship to home promotion going with 20% off and free shipping. I confirmed with the customer service that this item is eligible for both the discount and the free shipping. That makes this kit $175.19 plus tax. I can even drop off the core at a local AZ if I want and not have to pay to ship it. Then again, this un-needed crank could be added to my small, but growing Slant Six parts hoard. :lol: So, depending on what my Machinist comes back with this may be the way to go.

_________________
1975 Dodge D100 225 c.i., HEI, Parallel 2 bbl Motorcraft 2150, 727 auto, 9.25" 3.55:1
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:57 am 
Offline
Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 2862
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model*:
Quote:
measure the chambers again to determine how much to cut from the block to arrive at the target SCR


the machine shop that I worked with recommended to do it the opposite way,
with one additional step.

Measure the existing head cc and piston recession in bores 1 and 6 to understand where you are currently.
if there is a large difference in 1 and 6 for recession, the machine shop can angle mill the block a bit to
true it.
Then do all the block work, bore and block deck milling, when the block is done, install the crank, bearings,
pistons and rods, on 1 and 6 then remeasure piston recession.
On the head, do all the valve work, but do not deck the head, after the valve work is done, cc the head
again, and using the numbers from the completed block and the head with the valve work, re calculate
what needs to be cut on the head to get to your target static compression ratio.

this is a few more trips to the machine shop, but allows you and the shop to hit a target compression ratio
with accuracy.

Also, compare the outside diameters of the 340 springs and the stock slant six valve springs, you will see
why using the 340 retainers is a good idea.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm 
Offline
TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Pauls Valley, OK
Car Model*: 1975 Dodge D100
DadTruck wrote:
Quote:
measure the chambers again to determine how much to cut from the block to arrive at the target SCR


the machine shop that I worked with recommended to do it the opposite way,
with one additional step.

Measure the existing head cc and piston recession in bores 1 and 6 to understand where you are currently.
if there is a large difference in 1 and 6 for recession, the machine shop can angle mill the block a bit to
true it.
Then do all the block work, bore and block deck milling, when the block is done, install the crank, bearings,
pistons and rods, on 1 and 6 then remeasure piston recession.
On the head, do all the valve work, but do not deck the head, after the valve work is done, cc the head
again, and using the numbers from the completed block and the head with the valve work, re calculate
what needs to be cut on the head to get to your target static compression ratio.

this is a few more trips to the machine shop, but allows you and the shop to hit a target compression ratio
with accuracy.

Also, compare the outside diameters of the 340 springs and the stock slant six valve springs, you will see
why using the 340 retainers is a good idea.


Thanks for the suggestion DadTruck.
Yesterday I stopped by and discussed I this build with my Machinist, he said your suggestion sounds like a good plan. While I was there I also checked on the crank work. It's going to be at least $120. Add to that the cost of bearings and the crank kit is cheaper with the current promotion at AutoZone. I looked at the Crankshaft Rebuilders, Inc website and they claim to supply brand name bearings with the kits.

_________________
1975 Dodge D100 225 c.i., HEI, Parallel 2 bbl Motorcraft 2150, 727 auto, 9.25" 3.55:1
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:47 pm 
Offline
TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Pauls Valley, OK
Car Model*: 1975 Dodge D100
After some business travel, I'm back with the latest developments on the Sandman project.
I ordered and received a crank kit. The one from AutoZone didn't pan out; availability issues. This one came from Crankshaft Supply via Rockauto. I confirmed that has the larger flex plate register and is a forged crank. The one I got has been ground .020" on the mains and .030" on the rods. it came with Federal-Mogul bearings of the proper size.
Today, following Josh's suggestion, I measured the cylinders for taper. While doing so, I realized that the measurements I posted last are not correct. I had said the bores measured 3.413". I had written down 3.403" and got it wrong when I posted the findings later. I confirmed this today and measuring multiple times for the practice I found the bores range from 3.403" to 3.406". The bottom of the bores measured 3.401" or 3.402" (3 of each). I plan to drop off the block at the machinist this week and will ask him provide a recommendation.
Thanks again of everybody that has provide help and advice so far, I'll be checking back in soon with more updates.

_________________
1975 Dodge D100 225 c.i., HEI, Parallel 2 bbl Motorcraft 2150, 727 auto, 9.25" 3.55:1
Image


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next

All times are UTC-08:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited