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 Post subject: Re: NAWS
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 7:36 am 
I know. Im just an ass. =D

What they did to the Supra and the Charger was bad enough...


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 10:26 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: Yes, I've seen these two sites and agree with
: you on the organization point. I think that
: the average Saturday mechanic would have a
: problem trying to do an EFI conversion with
: only information provided by these sites and
: without a lot of additional research. But, I
: also agree that there is a lot of useful
: information there. I have been especially
: interested in the EPROM programming
: equipment.
: <A HREF="http://www.xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm">http://www.xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm</A>
: that is linked from the diy_efi site. Do you
: plan on developing that kind of capability?
: By the way I'm impressed by the fact that
: someone who has owned a GTO is interested
: in, and can accept the challenge of building
: a hi-pro SL6. Too often these folks,
: including Chrysler enthusiasts, look down
: their noses at a SL6. I remember a few years
: back reading an article in one of the
: Chrysler magazines where they had swapped
: out a SL6 and "put it in the trash
: where it belonged". Very imaginative!
: The magazine is now out of business.
: I wish someone could have taken the SL6 out of
: the trash, put a turbo on it, and then
: challenged their converted big block A-body
: to a race on the road that goes out the back
: side of Death Valley. Not me though, that
: road scared the hell out of me!:-0
: Bob D


Hi Bob:

EEPROMS are used in engine control for one of two things...storage of look up tables of data for the microproccessor to use given a certain set of info from the sensors, or as extra program and variable storage space.

Since early factory EFI tried to use the same algorithms and proccessors over numerous product lines, they used removable, reproggrammable, eeproms that store parameters that the microproccessor should use.

Example, a set of conditions exist at a given instant that you nail the throttle. coolant temp=, inlet air temp=, barometric pressure=, throttle position=...etc. these data points are manipulated by the engine control software to come up with a storage location in memory, where the appropriate ignition timing and injector pulse width settings would be located given this set of conditions.

So to modify the system for more or different performance(or for a different product line), you simply change the values in these locations. So for full throttle, high baro pressure, cool temp conditions...you might reprogram for 2 degrees more timing and a longer injector cycle to pick up some HP. This is how the plug in chips work for the most part.

My system will be easily reprogramable, but not in this way. My eeproms are onboard and are not replacable, however, I can tell my microproccessor to reprogram the memory on the fly...from my laptop, palm pilot, or a simple push button activated menu on the LCD built into the dash...this can even be done while the engine is running. Instead of using a huge, 3D map for injectors and timing, I will use a single, 2D map for each. Then the program will make real time modifications to this data based on software algorithms.

In other words...I have a basic timing curve, and injector pulse information that equates to a known set of conditions for the car to run...then I tell the computer to modify these numbers based on algorithms that use all available sensor info to make a decision...such as...for each increase in inlet air temp of 10 degrees, advance timing 1 degree...if at idle and in gear, increase initial timing 5 degrees...for each 5 degrees cooler inlet air temp, increase injector pulse witdth some amount...for each millibar change in pressure, change pulse width X...

Anyway...the idea is that a decision tree is formed by the software, and the engine parameters output by the system, will be modified appropriately during each loop through the code.

The benifit of this, is that I have a set number of variables, that can be scrolled through in a menu, and changed in real time, even just before a run down the track...without having to modify an entire eeprom, plug it in...and see how the engine runs.

Many people have been trying to convince me to put a 273 or 340-60 into the car...but I already have two V8 hotrods...my 11sec 64 GTO driver...in a few days to be high 10s...or my 70 GTO autocross car...mid 12's...5sp...

I am excited to build an engine that is different, and inexpensive...6 pistons and rods instead of 8...only one deck to surface, only 12 valves...

Also, I am very interested in learning the different building and tuning techniques for an engine with power strokes separated by 120 degrees instead of 90. Hence the reason I ask about cam separation angles and installed centerlines, the behaviour of the engine must be somewhat different when waiting longer for eack power application to the crank...and I like to be different.

On my 64 GTO, I show up at the track, lower my regular radials to 20#, and run super pro bracket in the 7.40s in the eigth, and 11.60's in the Qtr, and I run pump 92, a Qjet carb, and a stock, 1963 cast iron point distributor with a Pertronics magnetic conversion, all through a stock coil...I shift at 62-6400 rpm. I love the looks I get from running so well, so reliably, with parts most wouldn't dare be caught with...

I feel the /6 will bring me the same satisfaction when it is done...

Karl

gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 12:27 pm 
Well, Mr. Gearhead, it sounds like you're barking up exactly the right tree...

Happy building,

Lou


lmadsen@email.unc.edu


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 3:30 pm 
Karl.......The partial explanation/description, (reproduced below), gives one the impression that this system will be (almost) self-correcting for the given conditions at each code run, (or loop), and could very easily be used for both a pressurized engine, as well as a naturally aspirated one. All that would be required is an expanded set of parameters to take into account for higher pressure values. (Perhaps not in Barometric pressure, but in PSIG, all the way up to, say 12 psi)

Example: a certain set of values for idle throttle position, and 14.7 atmospheric, MAF, (or MAP) and (X) O2 sensor, but the parameters could be adjusted all the way to 26 atmospheric, (for 12 psi boost), which would adjust the timing and injector pulse to compensate for the percieved additional airflow.

If I'm interpreting your words correctly, your system is gonna be SWEET!! If not, what did I miss?

Roger
(User Above) wrote:
:
: My system will be easily reprogramable, but not
: in this way. My eeproms are onboard and are
: not replacable, however, I can tell my
: microproccessor to reprogram the memory on
: the fly...from my laptop, palm pilot, or a
: simple push button activated menu on the LCD
: built into the dash...this can even be done
: while the engine is running. Instead of
: using a huge, 3D map for injectors and
: timing, I will use a single, 2D map for
: each. Then the program will make real time
: modifications to this data based on software
: algorithms.
:
: In other words...I have a basic timing curve,
: and injector pulse information that equates
: to a known set of conditions for the car to
: run...then I tell the computer to modify
: these numbers based on algorithms that use
: all available sensor info to make a
: decision...such as...for each increase in
: inlet air temp of 10 degrees, advance timing
: 1 degree...if at idle and in gear, increase
: initial timing 5 degrees...for each 5
: degrees cooler inlet air temp, increase
: injector pulse witdth some amount...for each
: millibar change in pressure, change pulse
: width X...
:
: Anyway...the idea is that a decision tree is
: formed by the software, and the engine
: parameters output by the system, will be
: modified appropriately during each loop
: through the code.
:
: The benifit of this, is that I have a set
: number of variables, that can be scrolled
: through in a menu, and changed in real time,
: even just before a run down the
: track...without having to modify an entire
: eeprom, plug it in...and see how the engine
: runs.




GTS225@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 8:09 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Hi Bob: EEPROMS are used in engine control for
: one of two things...storage of look up
: tables of data for the microproccessor to
: use given a certain set of info from the
: sensors, or as extra program and variable
: storage space.
:
: Since early factory EFI tried to use the same
: algorithms and proccessors over numerous
: product lines, they used removable,
: reproggrammable, eeproms that store
: parameters that the microproccessor should
: use.
:
: Example, a set of conditions exist at a given
: instant that you nail the throttle. coolant
: temp=, inlet air temp=, barometric
: pressure=, throttle position=...etc. these
: data points are manipulated by the engine
: control software to come up with a storage
: location in memory, where the appropriate
: ignition timing and injector pulse width
: settings would be located given this set of
: conditions.
:
: So to modify the system for more or different
: performance(or for a different product
: line), you simply change the values in these
: locations. So for full throttle, high baro
: pressure, cool temp conditions...you might
: reprogram for 2 degrees more timing and a
: longer injector cycle to pick up some HP.
: This is how the plug in chips work for the
: most part.
:
: My system will be easily reprogramable, but not
: in this way. My eeproms are onboard and are
: not replacable, however, I can tell my
: microproccessor to reprogram the memory on
: the fly...from my laptop, palm pilot, or a
: simple push button activated menu on the LCD
: built into the dash...this can even be done
: while the engine is running. Instead of
: using a huge, 3D map for injectors and
: timing, I will use a single, 2D map for
: each. Then the program will make real time
: modifications to this data based on software
: algorithms.
:
: In other words...I have a basic timing curve,
: and injector pulse information that equates
: to a known set of conditions for the car to
: run...then I tell the computer to modify
: these numbers based on algorithms that use
: all available sensor info to make a
: decision...such as...for each increase in
: inlet air temp of 10 degrees, advance timing
: 1 degree...if at idle and in gear, increase
: initial timing 5 degrees...for each 5
: degrees cooler inlet air temp, increase
: injector pulse witdth some amount...for each
: millibar change in pressure, change pulse
: width X...
:
: Anyway...the idea is that a decision tree is
: formed by the software, and the engine
: parameters output by the system, will be
: modified appropriately during each loop
: through the code.
:
: The benifit of this, is that I have a set
: number of variables, that can be scrolled
: through in a menu, and changed in real time,
: even just before a run down the
: track...without having to modify an entire
: eeprom, plug it in...and see how the engine
: runs.
:
: Many people have been trying to convince me to
: put a 273 or 340-60 into the car...but I
: already have two V8 hotrods...my 11sec 64
: GTO driver...in a few days to be high
: 10s...or my 70 GTO autocross car...mid
: 12's...5sp...
:
: I am excited to build an engine that is
: different, and inexpensive...6 pistons and
: rods instead of 8...only one deck to
: surface, only 12 valves...
:
: Also, I am very interested in learning the
: different building and tuning techniques for
: an engine with power strokes separated by
: 120 degrees instead of 90. Hence the reason
: I ask about cam separation angles and
: installed centerlines, the behaviour of the
: engine must be somewhat different when
: waiting longer for eack power application to
: the crank...and I like to be different.
:
: On my 64 GTO, I show up at the track, lower my
: regular radials to 20#, and run super pro
: bracket in the 7.40s in the eigth, and
: 11.60's in the Qtr, and I run pump 92, a
: Qjet carb, and a stock, 1963 cast iron point
: distributor with a Pertronics magnetic
: conversion, all through a stock coil...I
: shift at 62-6400 rpm. I love the looks I get
: from running so well, so reliably, with
: parts most wouldn't dare be caught with...
:
: I feel the /6 will bring me the same
: satisfaction when it is done...
: Karl


Neat stuff! It really sounds like you're right on top of this. Keep us posted. I'm real interested in hearing how this all works out.

Bob D


BBobbias@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 9:06 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Karl.......The partial explanation/description,
: (reproduced below), gives one the impression
: that this system will be (almost)
: self-correcting for the given conditions at
: each code run, (or loop), and could very
: easily be used for both a pressurized
: engine, as well as a naturally aspirated
: one. All that would be required is an
: expanded set of parameters to take into
: account for higher pressure values. (Perhaps
: not in Barometric pressure, but in PSIG, all
: the way up to, say 12 psi)
:
: Example: a certain set of values for idle
: throttle position, and 14.7 atmospheric,
: MAF, (or MAP) and (X) O2 sensor, but the
: parameters could be adjusted all the way to
: 26 atmospheric, (for 12 psi boost), which
: would adjust the timing and injector pulse
: to compensate for the percieved additional
: airflow.
:
: If I'm interpreting your words correctly, your
: system is gonna be SWEET!! If not, what did
: I miss?
:
: Roger


Hi Roger:

No, you pretty much understand what I have in mind, and more important, the "why" I'm doing it myself.

By designing my own system, I can add parameters at any time by simply adding sensors, or outputs, or changing the code...something not easily accomplished at this level with a hacked factory system.

Factory systems are cool, and retro fits can work great and teach you alot...but how do you add an output pin or a input sensor to a fully developed circuit board? So I am building my own so that I can have injection, digital ignition, data acquisition, and an alarm system...all from one circuit board!

To use my system for boost assisted cars, you would simply need a MAP(manifold absolute pressure...vacuum using a different scale...pressure differential from atmospheric if speaking correctly) sensor with a range that covers the boost levels you are interested in...very easy...just a different part number from Motorola. With digital ignition as part of the package...timing retard during boost can be controlled with just a line or two of code(read the rpm, read the boost, throttle position, subtract x degrees during calculation)etc...

You can even use calibration loops to get max fuel economy. The proccessor tries different values of ignition advance vs injector pulse width while driving on the freeway...looking to the O2 sensor, and minimum throttle position to retain speed, to find optimum economy....

All these descriptions are somewhat simplified for time constraints, and for the ability of the average guy to follow what I am saying even if not yet able to grasp completely...

I have many projects and limited resources...but I am the kind of guy who follows through to completion...sooner or later. I will be more than happy to post progress and results...even if failures. You learn more from failing than succeeding.

I lost first round for four years of bracket racing when I was a kid...when I finally ran my dial and lost...I realized I didn't know anything about what I was really trying to do. I went home, drew a picture of the track and timing system...thought long and hard about what it takes to win a bracket race. I won my first race two weeks later...top 5 in points following season...class champion year after that...been winning at everything I do since that fatefull day that I realized how ignorant I was...

I'm still looking for thoughts on cam timing and lobe separation.

Thanks

Karl



gearhead@spiritone.com


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