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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:13 pm 
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Supercharged
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OK,

Here is the Plan:

I am about to make the leap from carbs to EFI.
This is on my daily Driver 79 Volare - Stock Cam - 2bbl - 1.70/ 1.44 Valves - -.100" of head with mild port. - Stock Bottom End - 833 Trans

Here's What I have:
1. Clifford 4Bbl Manifold with Fuel Rail and 6 Injectors - Not sure what kind or Rating on the injectors. - They have 2 Spade type connectors on each GM Wires?

2. Distributor with Advance weights locked out / Welded in place. It also has a pertronix (hall Effect) to trigger The Injectors.


Here's what I need:
1. All kinds of sensors. I plan to leave this as an open ended project (meaning a turbo or SuperCharger Might Come down the road)
So What kind of sensor should I run for this? maf?? or Map?? Are there others?
What If I wanted to go Distrubitorless and Use coil packs? Can I use the Existing magents in the balancer to accomplish This task for triggering?

o2 Sensor - I have a bung In the exhaust when I built it last year.
Temp sensor - GM type - Please give me Year, make model that will work

2 Electric Fuel Pump / Return Line
I plan to Put the fuel pump at the end of the Stock Steel line (where the mechanical pump Currently gets it fuel feed.
I also plan to use an existing emissions return line to the tank if possible.


3. Software - I am thinking of going with a Mega squirt II System

4. Fuel Pressure Regulator - What Kind / How / Where does it go Etc.

5. Throttlebody - ???? - I have the 4 Barrel intake and I looked on summit - there are some 1000cfm Edelbrock 4 BBl throttle bodies on there. I know 1000 CFM is way big, but I did not see anything else smaller than that in a 4 BBl arrangement.
Also On the Throttle body - What is an IAC Motor - And Do I need one on the Throttelbody?


Please Chime in with all helpful Ideas - part #'s, links and Hints - I hope to have the switch over done by next year at this time.

I also might have some plumbing problems with the fuel rail and the a/c componets that I will solve as well.


Thanks for your help

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:08 pm 
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Start by 100% committing to a ECU first. That will drive many of the other decisions.

MSII - 1, 2, and 3 bar map sensors are available so you have to decide on what max boost you may ever obtain. MAF options are available too but I remember there are gotchas to using MAF's with an MSII - check the megamanual.

Just because you have a 4bbl manifold doesn't mean your limited to a 4bbl throttle body. With all the fabricating necessary your going to go through, adapting any throttle body to your manifold is relatively easy with some 1/4" aluminum plate. If I had a choice I'd prefer a single bbl over 4. Less linkage, less things to go wrong.

IAC's - Idle Air Control - its a way of making a vacuum leak on purpose (lets air into the intake, past the throttle plates). They are not 100% needed, no, but lets you tune cold start, add a little extra rpm when your AC is on... these come in several types, steppers that allow you to continuously vary the amount. Solenoids - on or off, amount of air only controlled by size of the hose.

Distributorless can be done a few different ways. I went with ford edis as thats tried and true, the challenge being mounting the gear to the pulley. If you glue magnets to the dampner I believe the MS can read these and fire your coil directly w/o any ignition module.

Whichever ECU route you take, read the megamanual - its chalk full of info directly related to the MS and general theory as well. Has pix and part#'s of sensor options, fuel system plumbing, etc. I could write pages more in response to your inquiries but I think you will find the megamanual will answer quite a few of your curiosities. The folks at the megasquirt forums are just as passionate and friendly about the MS as we are here about our cars so check them out too.

Think things through from the start or else it will come back to bite you. Location, wiring, routing - things that tend to be cobbled together to get things running quickly, will have a significant influence on the outcome if done poorly. Been there, done that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:59 am 
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Greg, I am glad you are doing this. I think in the long run, you will be happier with your car.

It is not a good idea to locate your fuel pump that far from the source, and it must be below the fuel. This is why I went with a surge tank up front, and left the stock, mechanical pump into feed the surge tank. I started with the fuel pump on the frame rail in the back below the tank. It was so loud that you could hardly carry on a conversation when it was running. I got the surge tank from a company in CA, that specializes in fixing up Broncos to run off road. It should show up with a google search. Their set up was not too expensive, and works will with a huge deisel truck fuel filter acting as the surge tank, so it was a surge tank and filter in one. The electric pump draws from that and pumps into the fuel rail.

Stay away from the Paxton regulator. I purchased that, and did not discover it was a poor choice until I had pulled out most of the remaining hairs from my head.

In my opinion, the IAC is worth fooling with. It makes the engine idle smoother, allows for cold start increase in idle, as well as keeps the idle constant when any extra drain is thrown into the system such as auto trans engaging from N to D, and electric fans coming on. In fact, that is one of the features I consider a must have would put on my shopping list when looking for an ECU. Especially since you indicate this is your daily driver, grocery getter, and not a race car. If you get that right, your wife (girl friend, brother, etc.etc.) will drive the car. If not, she will always be afraid the engine is dying when she puts it into gear. Now if you don't want others to drive the car....:wink:

Many people here have had good luck with MS, and MSII. It has simply enormous support, world class documentation, and has gained much respect over the last five years. The Inovate AF ratio gauge I purchased included a patch for data logging with MS in their software. It was the only ECU so honored.

I am very happy with the Accel ECU now, but the road to getting there was tough. I think it is best left to professionals as pretty much everything I said about the MS systems is the opposite with the Accel: poor factory support, poor documentation, very little respect out in the world. It does have an accellent list of features, which is why I went with it.

For the most part, most of the stand alone EFI management systems utilize mid 80's to mid 90's GM sensors. They are easy to get, and work pretty well. I have not had one go bad yet.

I would go with a speed density system rather than the MASS AIR FlOW meter system. Factories go with MAF because the calibrate themselves according to changes that happen due to wear and such in the engine. Speed density set ups require more tinkering, but this is our hobby, and we love to do that, don;t we. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:14 am 
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Quote:
Clifford 4Bbl Manifold with Fuel Rail and 6 Injectors - Not sure what kind or Rating on the injectors. - They have 2 Spade type connectors on each GM Wires?


If the injectors are brand new, you may be able to find the flow rating from the part number. If they're used, I highly recommend having them cleaned and flow tested. You absolutely must know this to get your system tuned right.

Quote:
Distributor with Advance weights locked out / Welded in place. It also has a pertronix (hall Effect) to trigger The Injectors.


Sounds good. This would behave a lot like a points trigger from an electrical standpoint, except they never need adjusting. I presume you are placing the ignition timing under the computer's control too.

Quote:
Software - I am thinking of going with a Mega squirt II System


Well, that's a system that I know pretty well - I work for DIY Autotune, a Megasquirt seller. I'll base my suggestions off the MS-II, then, when it comes to sensors and ignition options.

Quote:
So What kind of sensor should I run for this? maf?? or Map?? Are there others?


A Megasquirt-II will have a built in 2.5 bar MAP sensor that works for most turbo and naturally aspirated engines, although you can special order them with other sensors. A few people have modified them for MAF use, and it works, but that's one more sensor to buy.

You'll also need a coolant temperature sensor, intake air temperature sensor, throttle position sensor, and oxygen sensor, in addition to the ignition trigger. The throttle position sensor (TPS) is somewhat optional but very useful.

Quote:
What If I wanted to go Distrubitorless and Use coil packs? Can I use the Existing magents in the balancer to accomplish This task for triggering?


The easiest way at the moment to go distributorless with Megasquirt-II is to add a Ford EDIS system, although there's some new code to accomodate direct coil control for a wasted spark system. It's not as mature as the EDIS use or using Megasquirt-I for distributorless ignitions, but you can see the documentation (sort of under construction) here:

http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/

How are the magnets you have in the balancer arranged now?

Quote:
o2 Sensor - I have a bung In the exhaust when I built it last year.


You're best off tuning it with a wideband oxygen sensor system if your budget can accomodate it. They fit into the same threads as normal ones, and you can use a normal sensor for everyday driving.

Quote:
Temp sensor - GM type - Please give me Year, make model that will work


See the MegaManual for part numbers. Most Megasquirt sellers sell temperature sensors too.

Quote:
I plan to Put the fuel pump at the end of the Stock Steel line (where the mechanical pump Currently gets it fuel feed.
I also plan to use an existing emissions return line to the tank if possible.


Most high pressure EFI pumps aren't designed to draw fuel through long lengths of lines. I'd recommend putting the fuel pump at the rear of the car, maybe even in the tank. And if you are planning on racing, sump or baffle the tank. I know it's a bit of work, but the stock tank pickup can suck up air too easily. No big deal on a carb, but a real pain with EFI.

Quote:
Fuel Pressure Regulator - What Kind / How / Where does it go Etc.


I'm using an inexpensive MSD regulator that looks like it started out as a part on some BMW. Even has a Bosch part number on it. It's plumbed up downstream of the fuel rail.

Quote:
Throttlebody - ???? - I have the 4 Barrel intake and I looked on summit - there are some 1000cfm Edelbrock 4 BBl throttle bodies on there. I know 1000 CFM is way big, but I did not see anything else smaller than that in a 4 BBl arrangement.


That is a little large, but you don't have to stick with a 4 bbl. You can always make an adapter for something else. Ford modular motors have handy cast aluminum elbows that can be useful for making an adapter. The Mustang has a lower profile elbow than the Crown Vic version.

With EFI, the main problem with a too-large throttle body is that you're likely to trouble with the throttle seeming to go almost full throttle in the first half of the pedal travel. Not quite as bad as a 1,000 CFM carburetor.

BTW, you can turn a junk carburetor into a throttle body. Just remove the boosters, plug any holes leading into the bores, remove the choke, and add a TPS.

Quote:
Also On the Throttle body - What is an IAC Motor - And Do I need one on the Throttelbody?


The IAC motor effectively gives you a bit more throttle opening when the engine's cold, like a fast idle screw on a carb. I'm not running one, but they are handy for drivability. And it doesn't have to be on the throttle body; it could be plumbed up with rubber hoses, one hose running upstream of the throttle and the other downstream.

The last question is tuning. Are you planning to bring it to a dyno shop? Tune it yourself on the street? You will need a good bit of tuning to get the most out of any ECU, and it's hard to tune the ignition timing except on a steady-state dyno.

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'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:08 am 
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Supercharged
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Location: IRWIN PA
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Thanks for the Ideas and suggestions guys,

i am going to study the mega manuals and Get some parts.

I will be back with more questions.

Question 1.

will Mega squirt 2 Work with sequential efI??


Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:10 pm 
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Seq injection is very little benefit of use. Batch fire injection is what nearly all makers use when over certain power level. Sequential is usually used at idle ONLY to improve emissions and idle quality.

Use DIS for ingition and batch fire for injection, you'll be very fine with that two.

Cheers, Wizard


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:55 pm 
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Wizard, Thanks I get it, When the Engine is running fast the injectors cant fire in sequence fast enough to keep up with demand. So Batch Fire it will be.


matt, Here are some pics of the manifold, fuel rail and Injectors.

I am still confused as I have seen some debate as to where the Fuel regulator Gets placed too. - If I plumb the Fuel inlet to be Near the #1 Cylinder injector do I place the regulator there or Do I plumb it at the oppisite end of the rail from where the fuel enters??

Image
Image
Image


Here are the #'s on the injectors - Can you tell me what lb/Hr rating they are by these #'s????
0 280 155 868
588
B
927

110545 Indvidually Stamped Serial / Production #??


The injectors are used but they are clean, As the manifold and Injectors and fuel rail Came off of the Mopar Muscle Article Engine That Romeo Furio had Built using the 283 Aluminum rods and other custom parts - The Injectors were on the motor for dyno pulls and a few runs down the track. They look new and Clean.



Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Supercharged

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Some batch fires do half and half

The pressure regulator should be at the other end of the fuel rail, with the pressure relief going back to the tank.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:50 pm 
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A quick googling of "0 280 155 868" found this site http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm - that is apparently a bosch # that flows 34.5lb/hr.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Supercharged
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Thanks Ed,


Does this look like a sutiable fuel Pump For the application?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku



How about this for the regulator?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... ew=sku&Ns=


Any reccomendations for a High Pressure Fuel Filter?




Also Should I spring for the relay board on Diyauto Tune? I am guessing it will make the install a whole bunch easier as There would be less to wire.

I am planning on purchasing the MSII Complete - as I have no experience Wiring up an box like that - and My soldering is usually suspect anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Supercharged
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Thanks Pierre,

Ok so Here Is my Injector Table -

Will these Injectors Be suitable for the Application, Or is it Just better To know this stuff for when I start Pluging values into the Mega tune?
Image



Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:51 pm 
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Check the tables out here - on a N/A engine 6 injectors at 34lb/injector support 350HP engines, add ~10% increased size for turbo.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:29 pm 
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I would get a regulator that has an adjustment for the pressure. My injectors are 36Lbs/hr, and seem just about right for my turbo application.

Sam

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:30 am 
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The pump looks good, and that's the exact same regulator I have on my Dart. I'm actually running a dual stage fuel pump with the filters in the low pressure section. But just about any factory EFI high pressure filter that you can plumb up ought to work. One from a mid '90s Chrysler V6 minivan might be good; they look like they have simple hose barb fittings.

The injectors are a bit large for a naturally aspirated engine, but shouldn't be any problem.

The relay board is something I'd definitely recommend. If you're buying one assembled from DIY Autotune, email me directly at matt@diyautotune.com, and I can spec out one with custom mods to match your ignition setup. I'd need to know what you are planning to do for ignition control.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:55 am 
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Thanks Matt,

I am now currently searching for a Throttle Body, I Think I am going to adapt a large 1bbl throttle body in the plumbing. I am trying to find one that has a tps Switch and an iac Device built in. So far none on summit have come up that way - Btw what is the cfm for a 70mm tb, how about a 75 MM TB? I was looking at tb's for a slmall ford motor, but I am still researching here.

I will plan on going junkyardin after I return from carlisle to get many of the Pigtails etc from a donor gm Car / Truck.


Matt, as far as ignition control, I would like to have msII Run it for infinte tunabality, I would like to start off with the Locked out Distrubtor with hall effect to trigger the ignition, Than maybe down the road switch to the Ford EIDS System as MS II seems to be compatible with that.

I also Have printed off most of the mega manual and will be studying that at carlisle during the next 3 days.



Greg

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