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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:09 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
Boring backstory to understand my current mindset about this issue:

So about a week and a half ago when I was trying to trace dirty wiring related to my overvoltage issue with the regulator, I unhooked the ignition switch connector and cleaned it and put it back together. I've been having problems with the truck not running ever since.

The problem seems to be ignition related so I've been fiddling with everything trying to figure it out. Swapping ignition control boxes, messing with the bulkhead connectors, etc... Sometimes it runs beautifully and other times I smell smoke from under the dash and then it quits running right at all.

I have not isolated the smoking but thought at first it was the headlight switch. However, this all started happening when I pushed on the windshield washer knob to see if the squirters worked. It's almost like something fried something else and I'm trying to work my way through to find what happened. None of my wiring I've seen is visibly burned at the bulkhead connector or on my ignition switch connector. I have not had my head up under the dash in a way to look at the wiper switch (wipers still work) or the headlight switch (headlights still work but the switch shaft gets hot sometimes.

The random burning smell seems to be associated with using the headlights but also seems to appear when the truck decides to stop running right.

My thought process is that maybe I toasted the ignition switch by shorting out the windshield washer button by attempting to use it. That's when things got weird, but I have no proof of that.

So.... back to my question. I'm testing the ignition switch and just need to verify that it's working as designed.

I've labeled what wires go to where in this photo:

Image

In my testing of the switch itself (disconnected from the vehicle wiring)

-Black to pink only gets continuity when the key is turned to start position. Turns off when sprung back to 'ignition on' position. This surprised me since I was expecting it to stay on in the 'ignition on' position. However, I remember reading somewhere that the point of this circuit is to provide a full +12VDC to ignition coil + while starting the vehicle. Then when the vehicle is running, the coil runs at whatever voltage it gets through the ballast resistor. Can someone verify this?

-Black to red only gets continuity in the 'ignition on' and 'start' key position. This is what I expected

-Black to light blue gets continuity in the 'ignition turned backwards to accessory' as well as 'ignition on' positions which I expected

-Black to orange gets continuity in the 'start' position which I expected


I was thinking of wiring up a universal ignition switch just to test and see if my ignition switch is the problem. After doing these continuity tests I wanted to check to see if the pink and orange wires should both be hooked to the 'start' post of the universal switch. Because before I ran the test I was thinking of hooking the pink wire up with the red wire to the 'IGN' post of the universal switch but now feel like that's wrong.

I just wanted to poll the audience.


Also, I'm planning on converting over to the chevy HEI setup as soon as I'm done testing the ignition switch issue, in which case I'm guessing the pink wire becomes obsolete since I'll be running both the HEI and the new ignition coil off of a full +12VDC on the red wire circuit?

Thanks for any insight!


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 Post subject: Headlight Switch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:58 pm 
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2 BBL ''SuperSix''
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:22 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Oroville
Car Model:
If you haven't pulled the headlight switch yet I would start with that. I had mine melt at the switch and almost take the whole car with it.

Good time to install a relay kit on the headlights when you replace it too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:46 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
That's a good idea. Thankfully everything is original including the headlights so there's no bodged wiring or high wattage load from added lights on the switch. A relay setup would be welcome for sure.

I need to see the wiring at the wiper switch as well because I'm somewhat concerned that nothing good happened when I pushed the washer button inward other than the ammeter spiked negative and the cigarette lighter voltage meter I had hooked up blanked out. I think the motor in the washer bottle is crusty and seized. Thankfully it's only a momentary switch so I wasn't sitting there frying anything for more than a second. But according to my wiring diagram the first place that big light blue Accessory wire runs from the ignition switch is to the back of the windshield wiper switch. I haven't had any troubles with lighting or dashboard gauges though.

Whatever the issue is, when it goes goofy none of the wiring that I've felt by hand has gotten hot. The fuse box doesn't get any fuses heating up either.
In terms of testing my ignition switch, I think all I need to do is start the truck and if it's running rough I can use a wire straight from the positive battery post and probe to the red wire on the bulkhead connector associated with the red wire off of my ignition switch. That'll provide battery voltage to the ignition module and to the one side of the ballast resistor that feeds the ignition coil. If things are still acting goofy I can rule out my ignition switch and move on to the ignition system itself.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:39 am 
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Contributor
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:29 am
Posts: 1040
Location: Texas
Car Model: 1964 Valiant convertible 225 automatic
The ignition switch in my 73 D100 burned up and melted wires in the steering column several years ago. At the time I heard several stories about that being a problem for that year. I decided to use a later model switch that mounts on top of the steering column behind the dash and is actuated by a rod. It was relatively easy to install and rewire and coincidence or not, I've not had any more problems with overheated wires.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:20 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
Today I tested my theory with a jumper wire from battery + to the red wire that connects to the ignition module, voltage regulator, and ignition coil by way of the ballast resistor.

The truck still ran the same (barely at all.)

And then later when I tried it, the truck was back to running fine. Tomorrow on my day off, I'm going to source a 12V coil and 4 pin HEI module and rig up a different ignition system.

I did a bunch of voltage testing and noticed that battery + to the red wire with ignition on, truck not running is about .5 volts lower when the VR is hooked up. I don't know if that's bad or good, but I observed that. When running, the voltage climbs to up over 14V.

The output voltage at the two sides of the ballast resistor when running is about 10v and 3v. Again, I don't know if those are good figures or not. The resistors both test as good (5 ohms and 1.4 ohms.)

The randomness of the problem is what's annoying me the most. So tomorrow I want to start with a new HEI and coil. The last piece in the puzzle is the pickup in the distributor. I bought a new one yesterday and will probably try that if the HEI setup doesn't work or has the same result.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:10 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
When chasing random engine performance issues do not ignore the fuel system.

_________________
Joshua


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:03 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
I've been there as well haha. I now own two of the same fuel pumps. I replaced the fuel sender in the tank when I got it but was curious what that first filthy tank of fuel did to the filter screen. I've tested the fuel line with my mity vac to verify it's still free and clear. I'm using clear 5/16" fuel filters to keep an eye on things.

This issue is very binary. The truck either runs perfectly or it bucks and kicks any time you try to put the engine under load and dies. It happens with both the ignition box that came with the truck and the NOS one I bought. I've also swapped out the original regulator with a replacement. Same for the ballast resistor(s.)

I've got most of my chevy HEI kit procured. Trying to find a distributor pickup connector so I don't have to cut the factory wiring up to set up the kit. So I'm about to call the local pick and pull to see how much they charge for one.

I went with an Accel 8140 coil and the BWD CBE4 module and a new BWD ME1A pickup for the distributor if I end up needing it. Hopefully it'll be 80 dollars well spent.

I'm still wondering about my alternator in all of this. The red field wire on the alternator is on the same circuit as the ignition coil and voltage regulator. I was wanting to change over to HEI anyway though, so I'm going to test that first. Key position to ignition if you probe the red wire at the bulkhead connection you get about 0.5V less than battery voltage. If you unhook the voltage regulator you get full battery voltage. That's the only part I'm not smart enough to understand. How the alternator works and how to test it. It's all in my big red service manual, but it's over my head and I don't have the tools to test it on the bench that they describe in the literature.

I think I've successfully ruled out my ignition switch now, however. I can't say I've ruled out fuelling 100%. If it does turn out to be fuel delivery, I'll be pretty embarrassed. The fuel pump is pumping fuel though. Also the truck idles and starts just fine. It's when you try to drive that it protests and wants to die if it happens to be in failure mode. Otherwise it's a beautiful thing and runs just like it should.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:50 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:39 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Dallas Texas
Car Model:
silverhead wrote:
BWD CBE4 module


Go to Radio Shack or somewhere and buy some heat sink compound to use with that module. Do not use the clear (dielectric?) grease supplied with the module. I burned out three of them before I switched to heat sink compound. I also keep a spare module in the glove box.

_________________
1976 Feather Duster /6 4sp
1984 W100 318 727 np241
1972 'Cuda 340 4sp
1985 D250 360 46RH


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:02 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
Well now I'm stumped. I installed all of my HEI kit parts and I'm having the same exact problem. The truck starts up and idles fine. Then when I go out onto the road to drive it, it falls on its face and goes into this bucking and kicking mode where I have to feather the gas and clutch just to limp home. Same exact symptoms as when I had the OEM ignition system in place.

I rigged up the new HEI kit to test it out. The only piece of the ignition system that isn't new is the pickup in the distributor. I guess I'll change it out and see what happens.

The problem -so- doesn't feel like a carburetor issue, but that'll be the next place to go looking. I pulled the vac line to the advancer on the distributor to test it and it's still working and holding vacuum.

I'm beginning to question my sanity at this point.

Video highlighting the parts after I got back home and got it running in the driveway again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDfLWWfwWI



The silver lining? Now that I have the new ignition stuff hooked up, my running voltage is correct. It dropped my voltage by about 0.7VDC. I have no idea why other than maybe due to bypassing the ballast resistors.

http://youtu.be/vdXsBuHyC58


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:31 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm
Posts: 31
Car Model:
Just for followup -- This totally ended up being carburetor related.

My OEM ignition system and the new HEI one were both completely fine. The pilot and main jets on my carb were totally plugged up with rusty sludge that I had pumped (through a wix fuel filter) into the carb up out of my plastic gas tank. All the rust is the remnants of my disintegrated fuel sender.

I completely tore down the carb which is a non-stock Holley 1945 and it was full of grime. You can't see it well here, but the main jet was pretty much completely full of rusty crud and who knows what the pilot circuit looked like.

Image

It's odd that I had really random and binary "runs well" / "doesn't run well at all" behavior when the carb was to blame.

It cleaned up well, but the fuel inlet/needle and seat threads on the -body- were stripped out by the previous owner. Also upon reassembly it still didn't idle right. So I pulled the original 1945 I got with the truck out of the box of parts I received and tore it down, ultrasonically cleaned it for an hour, and rebuilt it with a kit from O'Reilly.

Lo and behold, the truck drives fine again. Not much different than with the non stock carb, but good again. The non stock carb had a 611 main jet and my stock carb has a 621 which is accurate for the manual transmission model.

I'm back in business and the grungy old carb is clean and back in service.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:29 pm
Posts: 672
Location: Seattle, WA
Car Model: 75 Dart SE (2),75 Swinger, 74 Dart Sport,91 Ram RV
"I have to feather the gas and clutch just to limp home". That was a carburetor clue. "Feathering" the gas pedal means you are running off extra fuel supplied by the carburetor's accelerator pump, and you carb photos show why. Good find. :)

_________________
"Louise", a 1976 Dart Custom project, (now sadly reverted to being just an "organ donor" to our other project Darts.)


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