I purchased all the stuff to make new stainless wrapped brake lines with #3 AN braided hose, and as I was wrapping everything up at the speed shop, he casually dropped the line that "these are not DOT approved". So, not being in touch with my inner paranoid yet, I paid for everything and left.

WHAT? NOT DOT approved? That's what I should have said. I went and made up one end, which goes rather smoothly, and then started questioning the entire deal. If they are not DOT approved does that really matter? Maybe they are better, and yet outside the DOT guidlines somehow?

The way they work is, there is an inner teflon line, which is surrounded by stainless braiding. You push the entire hose through the outside fitting, spread the stainless away from the teflon enough to slide a brass compression fitting over the inner teflon, and under the stainless. Then you insert a third fitting with a male tube that goes inside the teflon, which pushes the compression ring into the compression taper of the first outsidie piece. YOu really crush this thing down, and the compression ring tightenes against the teflon tube, which is by now supported from the inside by the male tubing. In the end, the teflon is squeezed and trapped between the male, inner tube and the outer compression ring, and all still is surrounded buy the stainless braid. It seems really strong, if it all goes together correctly. And, maybe that is the rub with DOT. Maybe, since there is room for user error, they don;t trust them.

So, I have two questions. This is my true, inner paranoid talking:

1. How can I tell for sure if I have put this stuff together correctly? How can I tell if the compression ring, and the male tube have captured the teflon for sure? What if it slid apart as I assembled the threaded pieces. It seems as if the inner tube could possible push the teflon out of the ring as it is being tightened.

The speed shop says they use this stuff all the time for brakes. They also use it in NOS set ups, and that the pressure there is 1000 PSI. Am I correct in thinking that brake lines carry about 300 PSI?

2. Is there a way to pressure test these other than put them on and see if I rear-end an 18 wheeler on the interstate?

I went with these becaue they have very small banjo fittings available that allow more clearance around other suspension parts, namely the lower control arm. If anyone is interested, I will give further info on why I took everything apart in the first place.

Has anybody used these successfully, or seen someone else use them successfully? Are there any cautions to share? Most miportant, are there any horror stories to share. Thanks.

Sam

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Take your time and don't rush things.......

I haven't had any problems with AN oil-lines (but there's less pressure involved)

As for the DOT approval, I wouldn't worry about it. There often isn't DOT approval for race-brake lines......

The DOT approval is a test that the brake-line must pass for DOT approval. Since you're making it yourself, you can't pass the test....... (even though you'll probably exceed the standard)

Here's a better description:

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/wheel9.shtml

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Thanks Ems. That was a great read, and made me feel better. I stil wonder if there is a way to test these things off the car. I will put the plastic tubing on outside of the line if I can find the right size. I usually wrap my stainless lines with vacuum line, or heater hose anyplace it crosses another part, line, or wire of some kind. Thanks again. That was exactly what I was looking for.

Sam

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Personally, I'm not sure I would trust myself to make my own lines out of bulk line and fittings. It's pretty cheap to buy the pre-made lines, not sure why I would. I just got a set for the front of SS braided for $60 from magnumhp.com. Bill Reilly sells kits with all adapters included too.

You're probably fine, but not sure why they would bother to sell you these. Goodridge is a great brand and is DOT approved, I believe. Earl's and others also good.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Lou, I share your concerns, as you can tell. But after reading the link that Ems provided, I feel better about the DYI parts, if they are the good stuff, than DOT approved. Provided you do it right. He had some bad things to say about ready made DOT parts being made in China and such. He had nothing but praise for the Aeroquip fittings when properly done. That's the rub. Do I know if they are properly done until I try them? The link says he has never seen or read verfied claims of these fittings failing. He says he will not run the budget, imported stainless brake lines on his race cars. He runs only the high quality DYI, and changes them out regularly.

The drawback is that you cannot inspect for damage with stainless sleaves. That is true whether they are DOT crimped fittings or good DYI. I guess I am going to give it a try, and just torture test them on the jack stands. The way they are designed it is cirtually impossible for the stainless sleave to excape from the base fitting if done correctly.

Sam

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I work with auto safety standards on a daily basis. I am a longtime, vocal, outspoken critic of a great deal of what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration do (or, more accurately, what they do poorly or just plain don't bother doing) with respect to auto safety equipment standards and regulations.

But (you knew there'd be a "but"!), as I just finished describing in your Evans Waterless thread, I think your vendor is in this case feeding you a crock of poo. it is absolutely not the case that all DOT-certified brake lines are made in China — just do a quick Google search on stainless brake hose USA and you'll come up with lots of hits. Classic Tube's "Stopflex" items are made in America. So are Inline Tube's "PowerBraid" items. And that's just two of many sources. It's also absolutely not true that DOT-certified brake hoses are of poor quality or low performance relative to non-DOT items. There are so many things wrong with this claim that it's difficult to keep my comments short, but I will try (and fail):

A(nother) common marketeering tactic is to claim that the applicable safety standards are specifically written so as to prevent the certification of better-made, better-performing parts. This is true to a certain degree in a very few cases, but not very many at all (and I'm speaking here of all safety standards, not just the ones applicable to brake lines). Much more commonly, the standards permit but do not require relatively high performance from the regulated item or system. The difference between the claim and the reality may be subtle, but it's worth understanding. There is most often absolutely nothing in the applicable standards that prevents certification of a regulated item or system offering truly superior performance characteristics, and the claim otherwise must be viewed with extreme distrust. This is directly comparable to Scamsoil's propaganda about how API certification is a scam designed to maintain the oil companies' profit margins by effectively mandating low-quality, low-performance "commodity oils", and how Scamsoil's oils are vastly better than API-certified "commodity oils", etc. Data? Proof? Nope, just trust us. Bzzt! Wrong answer.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as "DOT approval" of regulated items or systems of motor vehicle equipment. The Audi link provided further up this thread bases a great deal of its material on variations of this utterly incorrect claim ("there are hoses that meet all the DOT requirements but aren't DOT approved because they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval" is just one such example). This is a common misunderstanding, and it's made even more common by the widespread marketing (mis)use of phrases like "DOT-approved". Our regulations don't work on a type-approval basis the way they do in Europe and Japan and other countries. Ours work on a self-certification system: the manufacturer or importer of an item of regulated motor vehicle equipment certifies that the equipment complies with all applicable provisions of all applicable regulations. Some of the regulations contain requirements for an explicit physical mark denoting this certification (such as the "DOT" marking on a headlamp lens). If the item is found not to comply for whatever reason — improper design or manufacture, faulty materials, whatever — then the maker or importer is subject to obligations such as recall and replacement as well as very high civil-penalty fines of many thousands of dollars per violation, where "one violation" means one brake hose, one seat belt, one headlamp, one tire, etc. If a company sells ten thousand noncompliant tires, that's ten thousand violations. You may remember that outfit in New Jersey that got busted last year for importing enormous numbers of noncompliant tires from China.

That said, the only way a maker or importer can certify that his hoses comply with the relevant DOT regulations is to test them himself (usually this means sending them to a capable testing laboratory). It is a fast and inexpensive set of tests relative to the other costs involved in engineering, manufacturing, and selling auto components. There is no DOT fee or other expense beyond the testing itself; if the maker's stuff passes the relevant tests, it meets the standard and can legally be certified as DOT-compliant. Which means there's absolutely zero reason why a company would do the tests, have their parts pass the test, and not certify DOT compliance. Which means if the hoses aren't DOT-certified, they almost certainly do not meet the requirements contained in the applicable standards.

About the only variant of what you were told that has some truth behind it is when you have an item that may not meet the US regulation, but meets another rigourous regulation (such as the internationalised European ECE regulation applied in the whole rest of the world outside North America). I would have no qualm at all using a brake line type-approved (yes) to the applicable ECE Regulation, Japanese Industrial Standard, or Australian Design Rule. Those regulations aren't identical to the US regulation, owing to differences in regulatory and technical philosophy, but they are all firmly grounded in science and engineering.

It is one thing to decide to accept "Use our oil instead of the API-approved stuff your vehicle's manufacturer says is required. Ours is better". It is quite another to decide to accept "Use fittings and hose materials not specifically engineered, designed, and tested for the requirements of brake-system service instead of fittings and hose materials intended for brake usage. Ours are better." It's not the marketeer whose safety you are potentially putting at grave risk by taking that advice, it's your own. And mine. And that guy's over there. And everyone else's with whom you share the road. "Gee, we've never had a report of a crash caused by our non-DOT brake hoses" is just plain not good enough. Please think very carefully before you decide to go ahead with your present plan.
There is no "torture" test you can possibly do with the hoses installed on the car that will come even close to simulating the testing required for compliance certification. All this kind of jackstand test will determine is if you happen to have a hose that's so badly made that it's going to fail instantly.

Please change your plans. You are about to do something foolhardy and dangerous.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

One thing that REALLY bothers me about these SS lines is protection

OK they have a Single braided SS armor outer layer some even have a Kevlar second layer and then Teflon.

The lines I am having made up has a thick outer rubber casing, a steel armor layer thin rubber layer steel armor braid again thin rubber layer and thin what ever the core is made up off

with the exception of the SS Kevlar combo I think these lines are better protected from rocks etc than the usual plain SS versions

Dan comment please

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Regards,
Fanie Gerber
It's never junk, it's just a part you're not currently using

http://www.valiant50.co.za
Just say I own a few Mopars

Dan, I really respect your opinion here. I need a hose with a round 7/16" banjo fitting on one end, and a female 3/16 flare fitting, preferably with the standard clip held end that is 36" long. I don't mind spending the money, of course. I'm glad you care.

Do you know of any way to test DYI stainless hoses adequately? I've got them made, and hate to just pitch them, but, of course at this point, I dont; want to wreck my car either. I have spent as much on diner as I paid for these hoses parts. But, if there is a satisfactory test that can be run by a local machine shop for instance, I would be happy to pay for the test.

Sam

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Sam,

Call Oil Filter Service in Portland, Oregon. They have preassembled hoses and the adapters you need.

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Joshua

I run -3 braided teflon lined brake hoses on my 4x4 for over 10 years of daily driving & harsh off-road use with no problems so far.I also run the same type on the front of my Valiant, again 2 years regular use & no issues. The lines I use also have the plastic outer shell which eventuaaly turns a little yellowish. If you want a good selection of fittings & outer plastic coating check with your local custom Harley shop cause thats what all the bikes have used & race cars for many years.

Ted

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mopar or no car
68 Valiant 100 2dr post /6 a-904 susp mods
78 Ramcharger 4x4 360 727 3/4t 33"
67 Charger 383 4bbl 727 trick suspension

OK, you haven't yet had a crash as a result of a failed homemade brake line. Good. I am glad to read it.

There are people who have smoked cigarettes for four decades and aren't dead of emphysema or lung cancer yet. Does that mean smoking's not a bad idea?

There are people who never wear seatbelts and aren't yet dead or crippled from a car crash. Does that mean seatbelt or no seatbelt is all the same?

Again: "Gee, I haven't had a problem so far with my homemade brake lines" is just plain not good enough. It just isn't, and if you cannot or will not understand why not, there's no point in my trying to make you understand.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

these are not homemade lines I use they are bought as the length u need with -3 ends & alot of these do have the DOT rating for street use.I do not agree with running them to long, but for flex hoses they work great & alot better than some cheap rubber flex hose.

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mopar or no car
68 Valiant 100 2dr post /6 a-904 susp mods
78 Ramcharger 4x4 360 727 3/4t 33"
67 Charger 383 4bbl 727 trick suspension

I do indeed. I wanna see you and your Dart again, respectively in condition as close to "in one piece, alive and well" as can be reasonably hoped for.

I don't offhand know a part number or guaranteed source for the hoses you specify, but you might try putting in a quick call to either or both of the tube/line specialists I mentioned in my previous post. They probably have what you need in stock...made in the USA and DOT-certified.
Yes: Send them to a lab for testing to the requirements of FMVSS 105. Then, if they pass, and you still want new ones rather than used ones, make new ones exactly, precisely identical to the ones you had tested. I know this sounds flippant, but I'm being fully serious. There is no workshop/jackstand type of test that can give adequate assurance.

(DIY = Do It Yerself. DYI = ...um... Ditch Your Inkwells? )
See above. I can find you a lab if you're really interested, but the thing is, hoses that have been adequately tested would qualify as used. Probably still good, but used nonetheless.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

The only way to test them is with pressure, and really the only easy to apply pressure is with them in the car.

(But you don't have to be driving)

After bleeding the brakes, apply as much force as you can to the brake system. If you have a rear adjustment, set it for maximum force to the rear.... Look for leaks, look for movement (someone else applies pressure)

As for the DOT approval......
There's no way a non-crimped end will pass because of the wording of the regulation. Is a non-crimped end better or worse than a crimped one? That depends, a high quality non-crimped is better than a so-so crimped, and vice-versa.... I do know I wouldn't trust a home-made crimped fitting, but I would trust a high-quality non-crimped that I made.

And the whip test.... If you look at DOT vs non-DOT you'll find a rubber reinforcement on the DOT lines (sort of like what they do with electric cords as they enter equipment). That reinforcement prevents fraying at the hose/end interface. You can always do the same thing, and/or inspect you lines.

I personally think you made a high-quality part, not just something thrown together by any old nimrod.

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Dan, I really appreciate the enormous time you put in for the benfit of the slant community, and I really, really appreciate the time you spent on this thread alone. But, lets beat this dying horse a little more. I looked in Summit's catalogue. and found two styles of stainless brake flex line. Russel and Earl's make DOT ready-made lines with specific appications, but with no listed specs. This makes it difficult for me to use, since my application is custom now. These pre-assembled units must have crimped ends, because they are listed as DOT approved.

Earl's sells exactly the part I need, but it is pre-assembled AN fittings just like I have here. However it is just the hose with AN fittings on each end, and not the final end fittings which are extra. These extra end fittings I have already purchased, so if I purchased the Earls AN style hoses I would not be throwing away half of my purchse to date. The thing is, since they are not crimped, they are NOT DOT. However, they are said to be pressure tested to 4000psi. For what it is worth, the Earl's lines do have a molded in plastic strain relief at each end.

This must mean that they have tested a prototype, and then made the others the same, correct? Which means any hose I purchased from them is not actually pressure tested. However, I can assume it is properly assembled, which I cannot be as sure of in my home made assemblies. Although, after working with these parts, the design is such that I do not see how they can fail, other than the teflon cracking. The fitting creates a really, really solid connection. The entire metal, outer fitting would have to split down the side for things to come apart. If they are properly assembled.

So the question is, Dan, would your concerns be satisfied by the Earl's preassembled AN flex lines. If not, I will keep searching. If so, that would simplify the re-engineering process a great deal. The money is not the important part. It is just going to take time to figure out what part to use now, and then wait for it to arrive.

As a matter of intellectual probing here, does it not seem that these Aeroquip brake fittings would be off the market if they were dangerous? It seems as if the lawsuits would remove them from the market. There is no warning on the package that they are not DOT approved, which means lawyers have not gotten into the act yet in the packaging department. This might suggest there have been no law suits of consequence so far. Maybe there is some broadly understood precedent case that covers all speed parts by implication, or association in some way.

Heck, you cannot even buy a hammer anymore without instructions telling you not to hit yourself, or anyone else with it. Wear eye protection, etc,etc. The first five pages of any instruction booklet packed with every consumer product is lawyer speak, in five different languages saying "you are on your own here, and your future death will certainly be attributable to your lack of understanding, and failure to read all the fine print in this booklet" "WE (the company in question) are hereby off the hook". Why do you suppose the speed parts industry does not have this kind of defensive lawyer involvment in the business. This is not a rhetorical question. It is interesting, is it not?

Dan, I know "Do It Yourself" is DIY, but I have heard mechanics for years use the expression DYI verbally. I just assumed this was some sort of universal mechanics' dyslexia. Of course I am dyslexic as hell when it comes to typing. I have inverted more letters than you can "hsake a tsick ta." So I would expect you to think I had just mis-typed.

This entire suspension, brakes thing got started because I figured out I was having handling problems that resulted from the brake calipers, interfering with the sway bar tabs in semi-hard turns, only when the wheels left the ground, as in bad bumps at highway speed into an interstate exit. It all looked fine while weight bearing, and on the ground, but everthing got real dicey when I hit that bump just wrong. This left me not wanting to drive the car on the interstates, which means no long distance trips with it.

The solution was to swap the spindles side for side, and put the calipers on the rear of the spindle . Easy enough, but these parts are big, and close to the LCA, and even after shaving away offending extra metal between the shock mount and the large rivit that holds the ball joint mount casting, things were still tighter than I liked, only on extreme extension of the suspension, against the stops. So, I started looking for flex lines with a smaller banjo fitting. There you are. If I could go into a store, and rumage through parts bins, I could find what I need in short order, I am sure.

There are always 8 good ways to do everything, and hind sight being 20-20, I likely could have fixed things more easily by buying an upgrade kit for bigger rotors, with caliper adapters extended out further for the larger rotors. This would have placed everything maybe an inch further from the LCA. I might have still had to move the calipers to the back, but it still would have allowed more clearance. I don;t know if 15" wheels would have cleared bigger rotors. The fact that this engineering process never ends is what makes it fun, and even my wife, after 40 years (6/23/1968), bless her heart, truly understands the joy I get out of this process, and heartily encourages it. She no longer asks, "why do you need a new one?" ,(of anything car related).

Thanks for being willing to read this long post, and kick this around a little more. Things are never as simple as "this is bad, and that is good". And, just because a person has an agenda to sell something does not completely undermine it's integrity. It just means you need other opinions, and maybe a little more background. But that does not, in and of itself, make it bad.

Sam

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