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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
Doug Dutra, you have a fan in FABO and I've been told to speak with you on this matter. I read your message board on a Stroke, not Stroked 225 /6. What are the ends and outs on that build? Any other input will be greatly appreciated as well.

The build is as follows. 1965 Dart GT. Numbers matching motor with the automatic 904. My goal is to produce 200-250hp maybe more. I know the /6 head is a huge power problem for these motors and not much out there is offered for it.
The Dart will stay a full interior car, full body stock. No tubs, no cage. The Dart is a tribute car to and for my wife in honor of her battle with cancer. As we put it, We will remove all the Cancer from her car and make it right just as its gonna be done to her.
I have no desire in spending a whole bunch of money on the motor when my total budget for the project is roughly 10k. I'm setting aside 2k for motor and trans. The transmission will be freshen with a shift kit and looking for a 2500-2800 converter. The motor being a 225 lacks in compression and a bad flowing head design, we all know this. I already have an Offenhauser 4bbl intake, an Edelbrock 500cfm carb, and Hooker 3 into 1 headers. Rearend will either be a 7 1/4 with 4.10:1 gear or a 8 1/4 with a 3.55:1 sure grip. Tires are undecided but will most likely be the Cragar SS with either 245x60r15 or 255x60r15 ET streets. Cam is undecided due to not knowing where to take the build yet.
There's a lot of arguing in doing the long rod is a waist of time and money to get no where with the motor build, yet no one has actual experience with such build. Every car is different and every build is different. I have acquired a 198 slant for $150 so I feel I've gotten one up in the game so far. Any help will be greatly appreciated. If this is the wrong build for my project, pointing me in the correct direction will be great and appreciated as well. Thank you.


P.S. The motor stays cause the wife loves her Slant Six. The headers stay cause the wife wants them to stay. lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:13 pm 
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I have a 232 built with 198 rods and .5mm over KB pistons. It's been a very good motor. Since you have a set of rods, use them. Get them resized and ARP bolts installed. Be aware though, by the time you get the 198 rods done you will be getting into the range of a set of Molnar rods money wise.

You are correct, the power is in the head, as will most of your budget. Big valves are getting tougher to find, but there are valves for other engines that can be made to work. Biggest thing will be not going hog wild with porting. Bigger is not always better, especially on a mild build like you want.

Don't be afraid to put a lot of camshaft in. As poor as the head is you need cam to get any air in without a turbo.

Good luck with your project. Sounds incredibly special. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
Can you clarify the resizing the rod. What part of the rod has to be resized? Are you referring to the rod bolts?


Thank you, it is an important build for us.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:01 am 
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Resizing the rod, is just another way of saying recondition. When rebuilding a motor corectly, the rods should be checked for straightness, lack of twist, and big end bore size and roundness. When upgrading to ARP bolts the rods should definitely be reconditioned.

You mentioned about having Hooker 3 into 1 headers. As far as I know Hooker does not make a header for the 66 and older slant six "A" bodies. Better double check, that they are correct. If you bought them new, what is the part number?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:49 am 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
Yeah, they are Hooker 3 into 1 header that doesn't fit. I have a guy that builds headers around here and said he can modify the tubing to clear the gear box and steering shaft. The header issue, will be one of those I know a guy who said he can fix them. lol. No offense to Doug but the Dutra header setup isn't the prettiest header out there, only because the manifold on those motors are ugly. Clifford headers must me made out of gold and factory cast headers are unicorns.

Re-sizing, I've always called it shock-pinning the rods. I guess its the same idea just different wording. But yes the rods will be checked for straightness and everything else. Other than that, no Re-sizing is required for the rods to bolt on the crank?

Is there a specific cam to run with this type of build? SlantSixDan, a member of FABO, suggested a cam by Doug and at one time the specs were lost by the company that was manufacturing them. Dutra RV15RDP. How do y'all feel about Hughes Racing, again a cam that has been frowned on by some, saying the cams are Chebby regrinds.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:38 am 
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65ToughinTeal wrote:
Re-sizing, I've always called it shock-pinning the rods. I guess its the same idea just different wording. But yes the rods will be checked for straightness and everything else. Other than that, no Re-sizing is required for the rods to bolt on the crank?


The correct term is "shot peening", and it is not the same as reconditioning the big end of the rods. Shot peening is a process in which tiny metal shot similar to shot gun beads are hurled at high speed at the parts and stress relieves them. Rods or cranks or any part can be subjected to this process, but rods and cranks will need to be resized or reground when they have been done this way. And its never a good idea to shot peen the rods with the bolts in them. Reconditioning of the rods is required any time you change rod bolts, whether they are stock replacement or ARP style, or after hundreds of thousands of miles of usage, and even when undertaking a HP build such as this. The inside diameter of the rods only has a one thousandths range of size it is supposed to be to provide the proper bearing crush, and can't be out of round or your bearing clearances will suffer drastically. So it is absolutely required when considering a build of this type or even a stock-ish rebuild when using tired OEM components.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
CNC-Dude wrote:
65ToughinTeal wrote:
Re-sizing, I've always called it shock-pinning the rods. I guess its the same idea just different wording. But yes the rods will be checked for straightness and everything else. Other than that, no Re-sizing is required for the rods to bolt on the crank?


The correct term is "shot peening", and it is not the same as reconditioning the big end of the rods. Shot peening is a process in which tiny metal shot similar to shot gun beads are hurled at high speed at the parts and stress relieves them. Rods or cranks or any part can be subjected to this process, but rods and cranks will need to be resized or reground when they have been done this way. And its never a good idea to shot peen the rods with the bolts in them. Reconditioning of the rods is required any time you change rod bolts, whether they are stock replacement or ARP style, or after hundreds of thousands of miles of usage, and even when undertaking a HP build such as this. The inside diameter of the rods only has a one thousandths range of size it is supposed to be to provide the proper bearing crush, and can't be out of round or your bearing clearances will suffer drastically. So it is absolutely required when considering a build of this type or even a stock-ish rebuild when using tired OEM components.

That was already in the plans for the build, so that's a plus that I'm going in the right direction.



As for there is never to much cam just not enough motor, Is Hughes Racing cams good enough for this build or should it something like a Clifford cam? The ends and outs on building engines I know. What I'm not sure of is when it comes to a /6. I'm learning more and more, that bigger isn't always better, especially with this particular motor. Hence why I requested to join this group. I own a /6, want to build a /6, and learn about a /6 from /6 guys, not V8 guys or 4 banger guys that think the motor is the same.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:22 pm 
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65ToughinTeal wrote:
Is Hughes Racing cams good enough for this build or should it something like a Clifford cam?


Question doesn't make sense as asked. Who said Hughes and Clifford are the only two options, and who said Clifford cams are for cases when Hughes cams are "not good enough"?

A better question would be along the lines of "What cam should I think about using for this build?". If you want to ask about specific cams, you might consider asking, "Would a Dutra RV15-RDP be a good pick for this build?" For one opinion, I think it probably would.

More generally, as you've already been told: Think very careful before you decide to (not) spend any money with Clifford. They have a long and ugly reputation for being a bunch of clowns; see for example here, here, here, here, and here. Much of what they sell is inaccurately described, and a lot of it is not even slightly cost-effective.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
SlantSixDan wrote:
65ToughinTeal wrote:
Is Hughes Racing cams good enough for this build or should it something like a Clifford cam?


Question doesn't make sense as asked. Who said Hughes and Clifford are the only two options, and who said Clifford cams are for cases when Hughes cams are "not good enough"?

A better question would be along the lines of "What cam should I think about using for this build?". If you want to ask about specific cams, you might consider asking, "Would a Dutra RV15-RDP be a good pick for this build?" For one opinion, I think it probably would.

More generally, as you've already been told: Think very careful before you decide to (not) spend any money with Clifford. They have a long and ugly reputation for being a bunch of clowns; see for example here, here, here, here, and here. Much of what they sell is inaccurately described, and a lot of it is not even slightly cost-effective.


Is there a specific cam to run with this type of build? SlantSixDan, a member of FABO, suggested a cam by Doug and at one time the specs were lost by the company that was manufacturing them. Dutra RV15RDP. How do y'all feel about Hughes Racing, again a cam that has been frowned on by some, saying the cams are Chebby regrinds.


The question was asked. Is there a specific cam to run with this type of build? The response I got was, There's no such thing as to much cam, just not enough motor, and I'm paraphrasing it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
As for Hughes and Clifford performance parts, those are the two names that have jumped out everytime during parts search. I've been warned of both of these companies which leads to the question, and I'll ask it this way, What is the best cam to run in my setup, given the motor build, car, and intended use of the the car? I've tried to search the Dutra cam and have come up with very little info on how to purchase said cam. All this has lead me to this page and register as a member so I can learn from the SlantSix gurus.

I'm looking for help on a Long Rod 225 build. I like what I've seen from the members on this page and wish to learn from them. I like being different and I'm not scared to be different. I just don't know enough nor have the experience in slant sixes. I usually pull them and throw them away. I've built a big block a-body. I've built a small block a-body, I now want to build a /6 a-body.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Car Model: 1965 Dodge Dart GT
Given that Erson was the cam company for Dutra cam, Is their cam the best direction to go in? I can't find the specs for the original Dutra cam, but have seen two grinds from Erson that I'm interested in. The first is a 280/280 Duration .465/.465 Lift with a 110 center line and the second is a 270/270 Duration .465/.465 lift with a 111 center line. The third they have that sounds like it could be a radical cam is their 286/294 Duration .510/.510 lift with a 108 centerline.
With running a 2500-2800 stall and a 3.55 or 4.10:1 rear gears, could the 280 cam work in a full interior car? I'm guessing that the longer rod in the 225 wouldn't effect the valve train side of the engine. If I'm incorrect with that assumption, please correct me. Thank you again for the feed backs.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:00 am 
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Remember that if you go the long rod route you may need to have valve reliefs depending on your piston and cam choice. You may wind up with pistons at near zero deck height.

If I had a good cam and oil pump gear that had been run as a pair for many years I would never get a new cam ground. Send the cam out to Oregon Cam Grinders and have them regrind your original cam and keep the match cam and oil pump gear running together. Oregon cam specs are in the FAQ section of the Engine section. Cost was $70 plus shipping last one I had done.

That being said, "large cam" depends on your definition. My son ran an Erson cam that they reground for us in his street car for 50,000 miles and had zero problems with it. It was grind "Hi Flow 1M" .510 lift/282 dur/ 246@.050. That was in a 4 speed car, but it was fully acceptable to us on the street.

Also a longer duration on the exhaust side, like the "radical " cam you list is generally not what the Slant 6 needs because the Slant 6 exhaust side flows better as a percentage than the Intake. Others say the longer exhaust duration is a "Chevy" grind.

Good luck

PS. I also ran a Hughes .473 lift cam in my race car for 3 seasons. That cam would be perfectly fine on the street with the convertor you are planning to run. It was given to me because it would not run in a guys car. Turns out the timing marks on a lot of new gears are not correct and it was installed way retarded and ran terribly.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:32 am 
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This is the cam I ran in my mostly stock 225. I had shaved .075" off the head and ran a 2 barrel with 1 7/8" exhaust. I really liked the performance.

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