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 Post subject: Cam Selection
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:34 am 
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3 Deuce Webber
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So I called Erson Cams today to discuss getting my cam based on my ideal build which includes a stock bottom end, a 3:73 to 3:91 gearing, a 2500 to 3000 stall speed converter, FITECH throttle body injection on an offenhauser 4 barrel manifold and a 150 shot wet nitrous setup.

I have headers but I think I want to put the Dutra duals on initially to keep it street friendly. I need to find a front Dutra piece and run duals into a y pipe and do a 2.5 exhaust pipe out the back or possibly down at a 45 degree turn before the rear. Would it benefit this combo to do duals out the back? I'm trying to keep weight down because my car is rated 3200 lbs before any lightening so I want to save weight where I can.

You guys and the posts I've been reading on the site have me convinced that there's a lot more work required to get the hyperpak to run well on the street. I'll run the headers with the hyperpak when the time comes.

The cam specs are as follows:

Duration intake and exhaust is 220
Valve lift is 465
Lobe center is 111

They told me based on my future build that this would work very well. It would also work with my current stock converter. My current gearing wouldn't compliment the cam but it would run will once I got the rpms up. Once I get the motor together then I'll move to the rear, trans and converter.

What do you think?

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1966 Plymouth Belvedere II 2dr hdtp
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Hi Bill,

Small cam. Not much performance above stock. 95% chance when calling a cam company is that the person on the phone will have no clue about Slant 6s.

What are your actual performance targets? Street friendly, MPG, or other important factors? Drag, autoX, road course, hwy driving? I can infer that you want street cruising and strip only, but it would help if you could clarify that. 16s, 14s in the 1/4? Compression ratio and desired type of fuel?

It will help us greatly to answer some or all of these questions, and then we can be of more help.

A big single exhaust is all you need (2X2" or 2.25" into Y at the trans Xmember, then 2.5 or 3" out back). Duals are for those V engines... ;)

All the best and happy building!

Lou

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Well that really stinks. I spent half an hour on the phone with him explaining what I wanted. He told me any more cam than that and I wouldn't be able to reap the benefits because I told him my stock bottom end would only be revving to 5k to 5200 with 5500 being the absolute max.

I would like to be able to hit 14-15 seconds in the 1/4 mile without nitrous, 13 with it.

Mpg is my least concern though I would like decent mileage but the car has to sound aggressive and be able to perform much better than stock

They told me the duration being raised to 230 would make it sound lopier and move the rpm top of the power band to 6k.

I was also told that even up at the higher duration raising the lift from 465 to 485 would only yield an additional 1 or 2 ft torque lbs.
The lobe center at 111 seems to fall right in line with what tech support told me. FITech says nothing below 110 lobe separation for their throttle body injection unit to run properly.

I'd like to run super and don't mind using octane booster but I don't want to have to use actual racing fuel. Too much of a hassle.

I definitely want single exhaust with duals into a y pipe if that'll be sufficient. I don't want the added weight unless it's necessary.

I would like to think that the cam I want would necessitate the use of a high stall speed converter because the cam is so aggressive but I'm told that's not good with nitrous or for gas mileage or vacuum which is needed to run the fuel injection system. I want it to sound bad ass!

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1966 Dodge Coronet Deluxe 2dr sedan

1966 Plymouth Belvedere II 2dr hdtp

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 Post subject: But...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Small cam. Not much performance above stock. 95% chance when calling a cam company is that the person on the phone will have no clue about Slant 6s.


Lou, this is the RV20 grind we got on the Group Buy from Erson it's adv. at 270... most of us went to the 280/270 (RV30/20...230/220), but I think low end torque suffered a bit if not dialed in (worked fine with the street hyperpak), the larger intake duration brought the vacc. reading down a bit which could hurt on street... I will say that Erson's AM cam looked good, but lift was a little light for the lift...

You can restore some of the low end torque by advancing the cam, but if you over do it, you will limit your effective rpms and raise the cylinder pressure high enough to need race gas...


The skinny would be this:

The RV20 cam would work better on the street and improve your low end torque for the heavy car (My car weighs 3200 lbs with me in it... ran low- mid 16's with my 10:1 "lou build"225 street hyperpak and dutra duals with the 280/270 cam.... worked great at higher rpm, but no way I could use the powerband at 4K on any highway in the US)...

The next step up would be to run the 280/270.. min static compression ratio would be 10:1, then would have to run a DCR calc to determine how to clock it to run on pump gas... It has a little bounce in stock configuration (not the nasty 'KAK' the muscle cars get), but enough that when looking at the vacc. gauge on the dash you will wonder if it's the cam or a valve lash issue... I actually 'detuned' this setup in another heavy duster castrating it with an offy and opened up stock manifold with no flap, and a single 2 1/4" exhaust... that ran a best of 17 seconds...LOL

None of these cams will get you to the 15 second mark in a heavy car... If you are serious, you will be looking at making the compromise at building a race engine and making it live until you make your last mods....

I think you will be looking at running 11:1 SCR, an OCG549 (250/250 @ 50, 109LSA and a nice .539 lift)... it will be a bit lumpy... street mileage won't be great, but you should get your 15's with no problem once you get headers, rear gears, and a better intake...

If this won't be your primary driver, then you can build the bigger engine and take the time to tune it right...and accept running it on super...


Quote:
Duals are for those V engines...


Yes, but it's still fun to install and have the V-8 guys compliment you on your "small block" until you lift the hood... but not necessary in this application, and is a weight saver. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:59 pm 
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111 is too wide for the long stroke 225......

The want to sell you the 111 because that's what they have.


Get a recommendation on this forum, then Oregon cams can grind it for you.

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64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:23 pm 
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111 is more oriented to nitrous, but will be less than optimal N/A.

I'd use a touch more converter and go at least .550" on lift.

Nitrous will really wake things up.

I turned my 232 to 7000 a few times with stock 198 rods in it, and normally shifted at 6500. It makes a lot of noise at 7000. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:37 pm 
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111 is too wide for the long stroke 225......


All the catalog Erson cams were ground this way (and advanced 4 degrees) and had good/mild manners at all rpm ranges...(not any worse than all the Comp Cams are ground at 110).

Technically with the conservative numbers at the build levels these cams serve, changing the LSA isn't going to alter the HP or torque band more than 5 hp of lb/ft at the sweet spot when playing with it (the bigger cam and other improvements like compression, breathing choices, etc...will make the big immediate power gains). Compared to the stock mill, running the Erson 280/270 at 111 in a 10:1 225 engine you will forget the 1 or 2 barrel builds with the power increases it brings...and it will idle nicely...


If he goes hyperpak, to make best use of the ram tuning he needs a wide LSA like that since the intake acts similar to a mild turbo to pack the cylinders above the sweet spot on the RPM clock... but the hyperpak also has a certain sweet spot in total overlap event and so to keep the cam in that spot the LSA does have to be changed to meet that or risk reversion and flow problems... (I was right on the edge with the OCG 250/250 @50 @109 LSA)...

Shorter manifolds don't care as much, and will benefit from the 106-108 LSA most slant six cams are ground at for better torque...

Other issues to consider as well... if the LSA is too narrow or the overlap event too wide, headers can over scavenge and pull some of the fresh air fuel charge into the collectors instead of leaving a useful charge... you also have to contemplate cylinder pressure bleed down as well...big cams and narrow LSA will bleed the cylinder down more than the tighter LSA lower duration RV cam, making the engine builder have to increase the compression ratio nominally to create best power in the cam's powerband... RV cam's go the other way using a tight overlap event to not bleed the cylinder down allowing the builder to keep the compression lower (and use more readily available fuels)....

Two common mistakes novice engine builders make are either over camming the engine (it sounds great, but it falls flat on it's face at street RPM's and runs great above 3000 rpm....), or under camming it and over doing the compression (RV cam keeps cylinder pressure, adding more compression builds more power... this thing should be 300 hp easy!... But it pings at all speeds and I am using 110 leaded and retarded the timing 20 degrees and am not using the vacuum advance... LOL)...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:47 am 
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Lucky you only wasted 1/2 hr. I've probably spent 500-1000 hrs figuring out what cams would work well in a Slant, and I'm not done yet.

If you don't have a V8, forget about good advice from any cam company. Oregon Cams knows some things because many of us have worked with them over the years.

15s on the street with that car should be doable NA without a huge buildup. 14s would be tougher. Use the N2O to go to 13s.

Biggest thing is head porting and bigger valves. Spend $$ and time on this. Cam is lower on the list of important factors. Compression should be 10:1 or so to achieve what you want and still run pump premium.

Lou

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:39 pm 
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I guess a half an hour is a small price to pay now that you've put it into perspective for me Lou.

I'm picking up a super six motor and trans complete with all cables, linkage, distributor, etc. I'm going to super six my other car and have an extra motor, head and tranny to boot.

I want to pull the super six head and start preparing it before I send it in to the machine shop. I've read that the later heads are actually a little better in design but also there are some additional holes that have to be welded up, something to do with emissions? Am I better off using the later head or should I use the head that came on my car? I like the idea of keeping my car running until I'm ready to install the new parts. I also want to be able to pull apart and cleaning up the pieces that I'm transferring to my motor as well as test fit some things and open up the exhaust manifold.

Regarding the 10:1 CR can I still run it on pump gas and octane booster?

With the higher revised cam specs will I be able to run the stock converter arty least until I can address the trans and rear swap?

What type of cost is involved with pulling the trans and having a proper converter made for the 904 in the car? Would it be foolish to put a converter in until I can afford the trans and rear upgrade? Or, can the cost of upgrading to the 200r4 be done cost effectively enough warrant the upgrade over the temporary converter?

I plan on upgrading to a 200r4, a higher stall speed converter as well and an Explorer rear but I can't afford to do all of this at once so I'm trying do this in stages.

Will the additional power that the motor produces will it push the converter up into a high enough rpm to get by temporarily?

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1966 Dodge Coronet Deluxe 2dr sedan

1966 Plymouth Belvedere II 2dr hdtp

Both slant 6 cars


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 Post subject: You can...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Am I better off using the later head or should I use the head that came on my car?
\

The head you want is the 1968-1974... although I run the 1975+ head, the 68-74 will look stock on your mill, and has a better selection for spark plugs... If you use the late head, you just need to plug the hole at the firewall end of the head.

Quote:
Regarding the 10:1 CR can I still run it on pump gas and octane booster?


If you build it correctly, select the appropriate cam, and recurve the distributor correctly, you can run it on 87 regular... then bump timing up at the track and run super... it all depends on your dynamic compression ratio calculation and how you set the cam and timing...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:16 am 
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You can of course get by with any converter, it just won't launch very fast. Nothing will be damaged.

I would use 68-74 head, but it doesn't matter much. DI talked about the differences. What years are the heads you have again? Do you have a good machine shop nearby that can install larger valves? How much can you budget for a head?

I would run a 10:1 motor on premium and you should not need booster or race gas.

Focus on the headwork for now and we can talk cams as you progress through the project. That only take a couple of weeks to get a custom cam, so you can think it over and discuss it while doing other parts.

Lou

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:20 am 
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Is the 68-74 head worth holding out for? What makes the later head not look like it belongs? How is spark plug choice hindered by the later head? I have this head available to me now. What specifically makes the 68-74 head better?

When I say "get by" with the converter I'm specifically referring to not only drivability but a low enough idle to put in gear without having to slam violently into gear. I can live with the poor launch while I dial in the rest of the drivetrain

If I'm able to get it running with the motor mods I can better figure out the correct stall speed needed correct? Or is it already a known fact as to what converter I should be using with my combination?

I am looking for a machine shop in my area. If anyone knows of someone I'd appreciate a a recommendation. Not sure what to budget for the head but I know I want oversized valves, triple angle valve job, back cut the valves, cc and mill the head, I'll do some of the porting and cleaning up of the head. I do this before I send it in for machine work I'm assuming.

I thought I'd do the head work and cam together since the motor has to come apart. I was going to do this work with the manifold and exhaust as well.

How do I recurve the distributor? I know nothing of this process. Di is this something you still offer as a service? Can I use the electronic ignition system from the super six or is there something better for the combination I'm using?


Quote:
f you build it correctly, select the appropriate cam, and recurve the distributor correctly, you can run it on 87 regular... then bump timing up at the track and run super... it all depends on your dynamic compression ratio calculation and how you set the cam and timing


This is a fantastic goal. I cannot, as of now, figure out how to get there. Thank you all the hand holding and sharing. I only have the winter to play with this since my profession is swimming pool building and repair and I'm anxious to figure out how to get to the desired next level before I get crazy at work again.

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1966 Dodge Coronet Deluxe 2dr sedan

1966 Plymouth Belvedere II 2dr hdtp

Both slant 6 cars


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:17 am 
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Get the valve seats rough cut for larger diam, then do your porting, then give back to shop to finish valve job.

Really, you can use any head, and some of the fastest cars out there have used all different heads. 75-79 head should work fine and tends to have more meat than others. I still can't find where you said this head originated or its approximate year. Is it the later head w/o the plug tubes and the small (~ 1/2") holes thru the head for the pushrods?

Lou

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:26 am 
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It's the head on the super six. Not sure what year it is yet (78-81 or so) or if I should even bother with it. It's a few hours from me and it's 300 for a complete motor and trans. It's got the distributor, 2 bbl mani, carb and linkage. I know it's worth it but I'm not sure I need it. If I can utilize the 2 bbl parts for my Belvedere, which I may turbocharge. If I turbo charge I'm under the impression I can leave the stock cam until I wish to upgrade it to further the turbo build. I'm not sure if if be better off with the super six 2 bbl or a 4bbl manifold. I'm also not sure when I would do it so I thought the 2 bbl would be good for now while I get the rest of the car together. It's a Vey good clean car so I want to start using it while I mess with the other one

Any advice is greatly appreciated

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1966 Dodge Coronet Deluxe 2dr sedan

1966 Plymouth Belvedere II 2dr hdtp

Both slant 6 cars


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:46 am 
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I would not fiddle with a supersix 2bbl intake, but others might disagree. Good idea to get another motor as a core to do while your other is running. Not sure it is worth that cost and distance, though.

Lou

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