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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:45 am 
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EFI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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So for anyone following our saga ....LOL

Seems that we definitely now have a smallish leak at the front lower corner of the oil pan......we have video evidence.

Leak takes a while to show up at idle.....increases somewhat when idle is run higher. Collects on the kmember then drips down. Messy.

https://youtu.be/SIxPG672j4M

Although I know the RIGHT WAY would be to have the pan removed and redone a second time (shop already redid it and the main seal again to solve a bad leak at the back end), there is nothing to say that it would solve this one without creating another. And rinse and repeat.

I have seen some folks here talk about having to do it 6 times before solving a leak.

I am usually more of a "do it right" sort of guy, but this is a royal PITA to keep addressing....If we can find a way to stop the leak that isn't so intensive, would rather go that route right now......

Wondering if anyone has tried this stuff....

https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-sealants/permatex-spray-sealant-leak-repair/

The description says it wicks, which would be ideal for a pan leak I think......wondering how best to clean the surface.

The leak isn't horrible, but its enough to make a mess underneath and my driveway looks like a dalmation...LOL . This plus the "common" head gasket oil leak and...well.....

Before anyone says it, I know that the shop SHOULD be responsible in "doing it right". But in my mind at this point if there is a simpler solution I would prefer to go that route.


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 Post subject: Ouch!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Location: Salem, OR
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Yeah, it looks like when the oil pan and timing cover gasket was put on , they didn't put a little smear of insurance where the rubber 'diamond' meets the cork oil pan rail gasket...

I would not use the spray on rubber gasket, since you could over do it with the straw and end up with a pan full of rubber jelly beans that won't be good for the pick up....

I would clean the area around the leak (on both sides of the engine), using a shop paper towel and some mild solvent or degreaser... you might use a Q-tip to try to get the most out of the hole as best you can... Once the area is dry and clean I would use some RTV (I like the ungodly color of bronze...)... and using your finger work the rtv into the hole and spread a layer even with the rail/cover and pan, then let sit for 24 hours and take it for a drive.... (If you don't want an 'orange finger', you can try gloves or coating your finger with lotion or baby/cooking oil first....)

As much as I hate to be a paste waster, on my hi-po engines, I have never trust the lower timing cover gasket, and the oil pan to rear seal bearing gasket as much any more since the quality and malleability of the 'rubber' seal have not been consistent in the last 4 years, and tend to re-seal those with RTV as added insurance (on the rear gasket, at least I know it's the rear seal going bad and not the oil level getting past the gaskets on a hard take off.... LOL


Good luck....


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 Post subject: Re: Ouch!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:47 am 
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EFI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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DusterIdiot wrote:
Yeah, it looks like when the oil pan and timing cover gasket was put on , they didn't put a little smear of insurance where the rubber 'diamond' meets the cork oil pan rail gasket...

I would not use the spray on rubber gasket, since you could over do it with the straw and end up with a pan full of rubber jelly beans that won't be good for the pick up....

I would clean the area around the leak (on both sides of the engine), using a shop paper towel and some mild solvent or degreaser... you might use a Q-tip to try to get the most out of the hole as best you can... Once the area is dry and clean I would use some RTV (I like the ungodly color of bronze...)... and using your finger work the rtv into the hole and spread a layer even with the rail/cover and pan, then let sit for 24 hours and take it for a drive.... (If you don't want an 'orange finger', you can try gloves or coating your finger with lotion or baby/cooking oil first....)

As much as I hate to be a paste waster, on my hi-po engines, I have never trust the lower timing cover gasket, and the oil pan to rear seal bearing gasket as much any more since the quality and malleability of the 'rubber' seal have not been consistent in the last 4 years, and tend to re-seal those with RTV as added insurance (on the rear gasket, at least I know it's the rear seal going bad and not the oil level getting past the gaskets on a hard take off.... LOL


Good luck....


Thanks for the advice.

I see what you mean about the spray.....I cant find the permatex brand anyways, just the rustoleum stuff which I already have......I have played with it on some other stuff .....it is very thin stuff so you have to apply multiple layers whereas with the rtv you can go heavy enough from the start....
Hoping to find one that has some sort of longer application tube though versus the usual short spouted tube ......which wont fit in the space.....I figured it would go better if I can apply it "remotely" and then smooth out etc with a stick of some sort.....not sure my fat fingers will make it into the space...

My plan was to raise the front end of the car so the oil heads to the back of the pan......brake clean it and let it dry, do that a second and maybe third time.....then apply.

Crossing my fingers the first try works because there is no second attempt at goop since the old stuff would have to be thoroughly removed first.

What about a product called "great stuff"? Someone said its made by 3M but all I can find is Permatex's version.....still called "great stuff".

Is the bronze (high heat stuff I assme?) any better as far as sticking and resisting oil?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:39 am
Posts: 519
Location: Australia
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Pretty common area for leaks. I'd back off the bolts in the general area a little,maybe even pry the gap slightly wider and then spray solvent in the area to degrease,then push some solvent into the gap. Let it set up slightly and then tighten bolts and add a tad more sealant on the outside for good measure. I had a family members engine "rebuilt" by some so called gurus while I was interestate. It was a mess,but it had a similar leak which I sealed up using this measure. Eventually I built another engine and replaced it to make things right. With all the leaks you have I'd be tempted to pull the engine,get it on a stand,pull the head and then reseal the whole engine.


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 Post subject: Same basic issue here
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:24 pm 
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3 Deuce Webber
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Bumping this 2017 thread because my issue is similar enough that a new thread did not seem justified (and to show that i’ve read this post, amongst others).

SlantSteve wrote:
Pretty common area for leaks. I'd back off the bolts in the general area a little,maybe even pry the gap slightly wider and then spray solvent in the area to degrease,then push some solvent into the gap. Let it set up slightly and then tighten bolts and add a tad more sealant on the outside for good measure.


This is/was my plan. My situation: the “Dalmatian drops” of oil dripping off the lower (passenger side) edge of the engine (hydraulic lifter 225 in my ’81 B150 van) have become too much—it’s an oily mess down there.

Factory Service Manual says:
Removal
    1) Disconnect battery ground cable; remove engine oil dipstick.
    2) Raise vehicle. Drain engine oil and remove engine to transmission strut.
    3) Remove torque converter inspection cover.
    4) Remove oil pan bolts and remove oil pan from engine.

Seems simple enough, other than i’d have to figure out which piece is the engine to transmission strut (but my original Dodge exploded view parts book + the FSM would show me, so that’s OK). But the question: raise vehicle how high? I’m thinking they’re talking shop hoist high, not small home ramps high, esp. since the dipstick tube does not appear to be removable from the pan that i can see, and is very tall/long.

Anyone had the oil pan out of a B van with the engine in place? Thoughts/advice?

I’m really thinking the engine has to come out of the vehicle. Unlike likely 95% of you here, i’ve never in my life participated in getting any engine out of any vehicle, hence the mere thought of it makes me want to curl up in a fetal position. As a social misfit/recluse, i also lack gearhead buddies who’ve ever done this, esp. those with any respect for the Slant 6 engine.

Based on my ASSumption that i lack what it takes to properly remove the pan and properly redo the gaskets (per the many threads i’ve read here on that subject with all kinds of good advice), i’ve been aiming towards a tacky, cheesy pan-in-place band-aid repair as discussed above in this thread.

The lower rail pan gasket is bulging out at both ends and along its run in one place. Here’s a view of the front end, before i started messing with anything:
Attachment:
oil pan gasket, passenger side view close SL6com edit.jpg
oil pan gasket, passenger side view close SL6com edit.jpg [ 68.52 KiB | Viewed 1292 times ]


So yesterday i did the dance of getting new oil + filter, fresh new 95g tube of Permatex 82180 Ultra Black, etc. for the job. Drained out the oil + removed the filter as usual with the engine nice and warm. Gave it hours to drain, then went back to start cleaning out the gap, knowing from the wisdom here and many other places that RTV isn’t going to adhere well (or at all) to oily surfaces.

Here’s where i may have really screwed up. It’s always looked to me like there was nothing other than RTV in that gap, which would not even slightly surprise me given what the previous owner did or allowed to be done and the decades i’ve spent undoing the corner-cutting. So i dug and i dug and for awhile all seemed good until i pulled out a big piece and looked carefully: cork (or similar) gasket, that i just wholesale tore off. Here’s what i dug out before i stopped (Ultra Black package corner shown for scale; apologies for the poor focus):
Attachment:
torn-out gasket bits SL6com edit.jpg
torn-out gasket bits SL6com edit.jpg [ 39.05 KiB | Viewed 1292 times ]


I stopped digging but kept solvent cleaning, using cotton swabs to get as deep into the gaps as possible, all the way along that lower rail and as much as i could near the corners with the end rubber gaskets in place. Took a long time and a lot of swabs, but eventually it was as clean as humanly possible. Getting dark, so gave it overnight for every trace of solvent to evaporate.

This morning i came out to set up to apply the Ultra Black, and to my great dismay found a line of oil pretty much all the way along that edge. How long does it take for these engines to finish draining down, so that edge will stay clean? Wiped down the edge again with a shop towel (one of those blue paper tear-off roll kind), then mostly as an exercise in futility, i used a shop vac crevice nozzle to suck out what i could, which seemed to do very little. Unsure how to proceed, i stuffed clean blue paper shop towel edges as far in as i could along the whole length (other than where the old chisel is holding the gap open). Very little to show for it after half an hour:
Attachment:
shop towels in gap SL6com edit.jpg
shop towels in gap SL6com edit.jpg [ 40.99 KiB | Viewed 1292 times ]


It’s now several hours later and i just went and looked again, and it looks exactly as in the photo. Would have thought that the towels would wick out whatever oil is still draining down and passing by and/or sitting there inside.

How does a mere mortal get that edge to stay clean and dry long enough to properly apply something like Ultra Black and have it cure and adhere properly?

Looking forward to your wisdom,

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:05 pm 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 9:08 am
Posts: 331
Location: Chelsea, MI
Car Model: 71 Dodge D100 64 Plymouth Valiant Wagon
If the leak is only on the side of the pan, not on the front where the timing chain cover is or on the back where the molded rubber gasket goes around the rear seal, it looks like you have enough room to slide an original gasket in.

The oil pan gasket comes in four parts, with each side just flat and simple. SO get both sides cleared up, slide in the new gasket, and you won't need any sealer at all.

This is all contingent on having enough gap between pan and block and being able to scrape a clean surface for both w/o any of the old gasket ending up in the oil pan, of course.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Joe

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71 D100 225 Super Six 727 AT on 2008 Crown Vic CopCar frame

64 Valiant Wagon 225 904 AT 3:23 8.75"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:34 pm 
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Can you let it sit for a few days, then hose it again with solvents, then apply the ultra black? That would be my best advice. Also, "The Right Stuff" is excellent and probably better than ultra black for this kind of repair. Goop it up so there is a thick bead protruding 1/4" radius from the oilpan rail surrounding the gap. It's hit or miss, but that should give you the best shot w/o dropping the pan (not easy or fun).

Lou

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:40 am 
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3 Deuce Webber
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Daddiojoe wrote:
The oil pan gasket comes in four parts, with each side just flat and simple. SO get both sides cleared up, slide in the new gasket, and you won't need any sealer at all.

This is all contingent on having enough gap between pan and block and being able to scrape a clean surface for both w/o any of the old gasket ending up in the oil pan, of course.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Joe


Thank you. Good to know this may be an option, though unsure if it’s currently my best option.

Not sure about the gap. All bolts on that rail are wholly removed and i loosened the end bolts (nut on the front too), with the high (driver’s) side bolts remaining in place (as there are currently no leaks there and i don’t want to cause more trouble). With that, i have to force a chisel in on the low (leaking, passenger) side to maintain any > 1mm gap at all.

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:46 am 
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3 Deuce Webber
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Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Dart270 wrote:
Can you let it sit for a few days, then hose it again with solvents, then apply the ultra black? That would be my best advice. Also, "The Right Stuff" is excellent and probably better than ultra black for this kind of repair. Goop it up so there is a thick bead protruding 1/4" radius from the oilpan rail surrounding the gap. It's hit or miss, but that should give you the best shot w/o dropping the pan (not easy or fun).

Lou


Thank you for this.

At this point, yes, i can absolutely let it sit a few days. Not having done this before, i’m unsure of the order of magnitude of how many days to let it sit. It’s been sitting with the shop towels in it since yesterday, and i’ve yet to look today to see if they’re absorbing anything visibly.

I did read about The Right Stuff, which for sure seems to be the right stuff for professionals where time is money. My concern as a noob is that i might not be able to fully apply all the needed RTV to all the needed places fast enough before it starts setting up. Ultra Black with its 24 hour cure time requirement seemed like a slower cure, which i equate to a little more futzing around time to ensure i have the surfaces and bolt holes totally covered as well as possible without shoving stuff into the engine interior before snugging up the bolts finger tight and waiting the one (Permatex) to two (posts here) hours before tightening to spec.

Is there something about The Right Stuff that makes it better apart from its faster cure time (for those who need fast)?

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 13
Location: Metro Detroit
Car Model: 1968 Dodge Dart
I had an oil pan leak that only occurred while driving -- not when idling. So, it must have been caused by oil being thrown at a spot where the gasket wasn't perfectly sealed (at a joint). I pressurized the crankcase with a couple psi of air pressure and used soapy water to find the leak. Once found, I actually tried Permatex spray sealant -- and it worked! I haven't had an oil pan leak since!

https://www.permatex.com/products/adhes ... pair-9-oz/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:20 pm 
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Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Sweet… tried to upload an image, and page locked and site lost my fairly long draft :roll: . Site’s also not informing me of anyone replying to my posts, but that’s discussed elsewhere in an appropriate section.

Thanks for the Permatex spray tip.

The Ultra Black sealing of the bottom oil pan edge worked! Unfortunately, a significant oil leak remains, from somewhere up in front.

Driving locally 15-20 min., 30-45 MPH: no leak, or maybe a drop. Driving 55 MPH for half an hour or so: significant oil leak—almost as much as before.

Cannot figure out exactly where the leak is, other than somewhere at the front of the engine. Here’s what it looks like today, vehicle having sat for several weeks with no effort on my part to clean anything:
Attachment:
front oil leak cropped June 2022.jpg
front oil leak cropped June 2022.jpg [ 184.14 KiB | Viewed 268 times ]


A Slant 6-experienced co-worker of a friend had a very quick look, without really getting all the way underneath. He thinks it’s the front crankshaft seal.

I have not yet taken things apart to actually look. This is my only motor vehicle, so i want to have everything lined up to get it done, so it will be roadworthy by early July when i need to take a several hundred mile trip.

Thoughts on this leak? Other possible sources? Things to test while it’s all assembled? Or just start ripping into it and hope?

Thanks.

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:45 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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I have a go-to way of locating the source of any leak.
Clean the suspect area thoroughly with engine de-greaser and water and let it completely dry.
Get a can of spray foot powder and give the whole suspected area a light coating of powder.
Run the engine and closely inspect the suspected leak area. Even the slightest leak will show up as darkening of the foot powder.
Don't let it run too long or leak too much or the dark area could spread so far that the source will be hard to pinpoint. If that happens, clean it all up and start over.
The foot powder will easily wash off with water when you are done.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:19 am 
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3 Deuce Webber
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
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Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
ProCycle wrote:
I have a go-to way of locating the source of any leak.
[…]


Thank you for this suggestion. I’m getting what to me are ambiguous results. Here’s what i did:

1) Cleaned area with engine degreaser & water, mostly per product’s instructions other than allowing to air dry for several hours rather than running engine to dry, since running the engine could trigger the leak and spraying the powder on wet was unlikely to be helpful.

2) Sprayed on the powder. Here’s a Before picture:
Attachment:
powder spray before closer passenger front.jpg
powder spray before closer passenger front.jpg [ 23.78 KiB | Viewed 194 times ]


3) Ran the engine for about 15 min. Here are the After pics:
Attachment:
powder after front.jpg
powder after front.jpg [ 23.62 KiB | Viewed 194 times ]

Attachment:
powder after upwards angle.jpg
powder after upwards angle.jpg [ 24.14 KiB | Viewed 194 times ]

Attachment:
driver’s side looking up.jpg
driver’s side looking up.jpg [ 23.99 KiB | Viewed 194 times ]


Is this a combo leak of the front gasket AND somewhere up higher? Not sure how to interpret what i’m seeing, thus unsure how to proceed.

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:27 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Springtucky OR
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Sonic Purity wrote:
...Is this a combo leak of the front gasket AND somewhere up higher? Not sure how to interpret what i’m seeing, thus unsure how to proceed.

It looks like the front crank seal is leaking. Also looks like the joint between the timing cover and oil pan but if you replace the crank seal you will have the timing cover off and will need to replace the related gaskets to put it back together.

If I was going to dive into this job I'd also replace the timing chain, gears and water pump. Unless those things have low mileage.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:20 am 
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Yep, It's one of those.......while your in there sort of things.

Do it now or do it again later and risk the sealing problems again.

Greg

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