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 Post subject: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:09 pm 
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2 BBL ''SuperSix''

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:45 am
Posts: 13
Location: Florida
Car Model: Volare and Stratus
So, what I know, is that "delete" is a popular common phrase used to denote "removing a thing". Cats ( Catalytic Converters ) are a common delete, but I am curious... Can I remove AC functions while improving through/out-put?

I have a 1979 stock 225 super (unsure if lean), but I get really mad at the AC compressor and the lines that I cannot simply undo with a wrench twist. The belt goes to a pulley with nothing else on the compressor itself, and on the crank pulley, it's got its' own V to ride in on the Balancer/Crank Pulley. I have experience in transmissions and fuel lines, which are not nearly as pressurized (at least as far as my understanding goes) as AC lines, more notable on non fuel-injection systems (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is the box, just to the right of the shiny voltage regulator:
Image
So how do I decouple/cap off? If my questions are broad, is there a decent youtube vid that explains? Also thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:56 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2366
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
the one on the AC lines? that is a cycling switch, supposed to keep the evaporator from icing up while teh AC is doing its thing.
You're deleting AC??? How in depth are you getting? I would like to find the brackets to add AC to mine. Your hoses won't fit my application though. Yours does not have an air pump, right? (even if it did, I could make them work, just "cleaner" off a car that never had the air pump from the get go) IF (yeah big word, I know) you remove the AC compressor and brackets and all, I would be interested in the bracketry that mounts the compressor. No hurry, the AC is down a bit on the list of priorities.
If interested, PM me with your plans/ and when you might be ready to do the delete. too bad youre not closer, I have all the non AC stuff for a Volare.

If I ever get back to my '80, I will be doing the opposite, adding AC to a car that came without. I have all the interior AC parts I will need under the dash, to convert mine TO an AC car! Iam currently doing the same to an 85 D150 with a /6.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:07 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3560
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model:
The only time that AC affects vehicle performance is when the unit AC is switched on and is functioning.
Actually when going at highway speeds your vehicle is likely more efficient with the AC on and the windows up than with the AC off and the windows down.

If the AC system has a refrigerant charge in it, you really should have that professionally discharged before removing the system.
However if your AC system has not been maintained it is possible that all of the refrigerant has already leaked away.
Best to have a professional look at it, if it is pressurized you could get hurt by the uncontained discharge.

So get it evacuated, then take it off and send it - sell it to Don.

_________________
Doo Ron Ron and the Duke of Earl are friends of mine.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX8Nj8ABEI8


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:08 pm 
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2 BBL ''SuperSix''

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:45 am
Posts: 13
Location: Florida
Car Model: Volare and Stratus
Yes, the AC line that joins to the firewall. As far as I can see, it's a few disconnects (save the firewall one), but I've dabbled enough in HVAC to understand there's a high and low pressure line that I simply don't have the tools for.

The box in question, connects to the firewall in the red grid. The large hose from the AC compressor is marked in yellow.
Image

To set expectations, anything I remove, I'd be likely to keep unless it was a favored trade (short supply vs high need or short need vs high supply). I'm fairly sure this entire system is stock (kinda cataloging the mopar/original part nums), so even if parts are damaged... I'd rather keep them for nostalgia or workshop disassembly for tutoring. I am just operating on the supposition that less kinetic force on the crank pulley from AC = more brrrt from engine to wheels. Also, I really wanna get rid of the ugly under the hood, and since those lines are out of my capabilities (this day at least), deleting seems more plausible. Just not sure if there's any negative side effects (other than the "cold" switch not making cold come out the vents).


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:18 pm 
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2 BBL ''SuperSix''

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:45 am
Posts: 13
Location: Florida
Car Model: Volare and Stratus
DadTruck wrote:
The only time that AC affects vehicle performance is when the unit AC is switched on and is functioning.
Actually when going at highway speeds your vehicle is likely more efficient with the AC on and the windows up than with the AC off and the windows down.


I refuse to use AC in my modern vehicles, only because I believe (perhaps incorrectly?) the extra pull from an engaged AC compressor is similar to towing a load; it adds drag. Is it the drag of the air foils that decreases efficiency, or the drag of the idle system in this case?

I cannot envision a 3rd pulley on a belted system that negates air resistance. I mean that as the removal being the comparison, not free-rolling-but-still-in-place. In your comparison, it would be the question, "What is the difference at highway speeds with AC off versus AC removed completely", essentially when the pulley is providing no work, but a resistance in the system (even if properly on bearings to mitigate, since the belt still applies tension).


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:30 pm 
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SL6 Racer & Moderator
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
Posts: 7847
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
Car Model:
Where in Florida are you? In my Opinion, if you live in Fl, and have A/C but don't use it, you are a glutton for punishment. In most cases, especially newer, late model vehicles you will get better fuel milage at highway speeds with the windows up, and A/C on.

_________________
Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:42 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3560
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model:
My 83 D150 with a mild performance built slant gets better highway mileage with the windows up and the AC on. It is also much quieter and comfortable in the cab with the windows up.

The AC compressor does not run all the time that the AC is switched on. It cycles on and off.
And the AC compressor does not take a lot of HP to run. Again, using the 83 D150 as an example as that vehicle does not have any compensation to adjust the idle when the AC is switched on, if the engine is idling at 800 rpm with the AC off, switch the AC on and the idle rpm will drop 50 to 75 rpm, and that is at idle, where the engine is making very little HP.

When you drive at highway speeds with the windows down that drag from turbulence is there all of the time.

_________________
Doo Ron Ron and the Duke of Earl are friends of mine.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX8Nj8ABEI8


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:21 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 13326
Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model: 68 Valiant
Not to mention driving highway speeds with the windows down beats the crap out of your hearing.

_________________
Official Cookie and Mater Tormentor.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:22 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
AC hurts 'performance' not just because of engine drag but also the added weight of all the goo-goo needed to have AC. Even if the AC is 'off', you're still lugging around the extra weight...and most/all of it is over the front wheels which is not where you want it. It also, presumably, makes it tougher to cool the engine as the AC condenser is both obstructing airflow to the radiator and also heating your cooling air.


That said....there is a world of difference between the AC compressor most Slant Sixes were born with and the AC compressor of a modern vehicle. The modern AC compressor uses little power and is usually 6 or 8 vanes which give a very smooth operation. The old AC compressor (R2) is a mini-Harley Davidson engine...a V-twin that takes some power to run and has a pretty chunky rotation.


Who thinks a modern 1.6L 4 cylinder engine would be able to idle in Drive with an R2 hanging off it? No way. Even on a V8, when you turn on the R2 you can tell something happened under the hood. In the olden days, it was a rule of thumb that AC would cost you 2MPG.

The last two old cars I did with AC used a Sanden 7176 compressor.....worked perfectly and had modern-car behavior.


Then ...... nothing like the old refrigerants which would form ice on the vents. Luckily, our scientists discovered the Earth was within 3 hours of total explosion due to them and now we have refrigerants that...function. Whew!


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:14 am 
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Turbo EFI
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2366
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Well, I think that was a slight exaggeration with the "3 hours from doom" due to R12, but yeah. I wondered about the same thing a while back, (how much of a "HP sucker" that AC is) when I was starting my build and trying to decide whether to add AC to this truck during the process of redoing it/ especially with the "no substitute for C.I.D." thinking of so long, and knowing that a 225 is "CID challenged" from the get go.
I posted somewhere asking similar questions about how much of a "HP hog" that AC is and what compressor could I use, that was the least amount of a "HP hog"
and where ever I was posting/looking for ideas the general thought was that the RV2 could suck as much as 20HP when active, (with an engine such as the /6 that only has about 100 HP to give to begin with (stock, anyway) that is alot. And that the sanden style could be as low as 5-6hp draw. Pretty big difference.
But with the "gettin older" thing, instead of deleting AC on everything like I used to, I have been trying to add it where it never was and fixing it where it exists but don't work.
I remember when we had the 85 Diplomat that was the absolute coldest AC I have ever had in a car, I almost never used it. Yet when I had the 89 Diplomat for my very next vehicle, that one worked ok, but never was as good as what the 85 had had. Seems that 89 was never quite as good to us, in more ways than that as the 85 had been.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:18 am 
Offline
Turbo EFI
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2366
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
I also have my volare project that came to me as a non ac car but I have everything I need to add ac to that one unless I change my mind and stay with a/6 under that hood. In which case I'll need a 2nd set of /6, ac mount brackets. I planned on making that car a small block V8 from the get go, but I'm a ways from dropping any engine into that one. Who knows this /6 engine I built for my truck may eventually end up in that car instead
Subject for another time.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:29 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
The big 'killer' with AC is that whatever HP is takes to spin...it has to be produced at idle speeds. Giving up 20HP on a 100HP engine is acceptable....giving up 20HP on a 21HP engine, you're gonna notice.

That's why I laugh when I read the countless guys who 'hot rod' their car and have cooling problems...they all say "Well, of course its gonna run hotter- it's making 800HP! Only it's not making 800HP when they're idling or cruising down the road at 30MPH. A 426 Hemi makes the same HP as a 170 when it's idling in gear. But that's another topic....

Then....with modern cars you are obligated to use AC because you can't drive with the windows down.

I like AC as much as anyone, but it has its costs.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:32 am 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 7394
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Quote:
with modern cars you are obligated to use AC because you can't drive with the windows down


Why is that?

_________________
2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:55 am 
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SL6 Racer & Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
Posts: 7847
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
Car Model:
Rick Covalt wrote:
Quote:
with modern cars you are obligated to use AC because you can't drive with the windows down


Why is that?

Government safety regulation. Car cannot be put in gear with the windows down. Don't want you thrown out, if you don't have your seat belt on. :twisted: :roll:

_________________
Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:58 am 
Offline
Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 7394
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Quote:
Car cannot be put in gear with the windows down.


And yet we still sell convertibles? and motorcyles? ....etc

Can you put windows down once you are moving? In gear? I had know idea!

_________________
2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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12.80 @ 102.88
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