Hello all,

first post here, thanks in advance for any help you can offer. I have spent a bit of time searching for answers but would like to confirm my findings.

I am trying to find a backup engine for a boat travel lift. The machine is fully hydraulic and the pumps are driven by an H225. Machine was built in 1988 but the company has since gone out of business so parts are difficult to come by and most replacement parts are either custom made or rebuilt. In general the machine is in good condition and, with care, should run for many more years to come but one part we can't just custom make for ourselves is the engine. Of course we can have it rebuilt, but the down time would be inconvenient and we would prefer to just swap in a new engine when the time comes and then rebuild at leisure. A spare engine would also be an asset if we ever decided to sell the machine. So we're looking for a backup to have on hand, ready to go.

So, with that background I'm hoping for some guidance on a direct swap option. As far as I can tell the industrial engines (H series?) should be direct swap. However I don't think we absolutely need an H series and would be fine with a 'civilian' version. I've found various threads mentioning that the differences between car/truck engines and the industrial or military versions are minor, mostly single vs double timing chains, hardened and peened rods, etc, but also that there may be differences in the mating pattern for auto vs. manual transmission applications, and also something about '67/'68 there being a change in crank size.

The serial number for our engine is E594444, and there is also a part number 4417679, although I haven't been able to find the magic decoder thread I've seen mentioned to see what these mean. I have attached some pictures of the engine as well. I was reading another thread that mentioned a different place to look on the block for more identifying info but I forgot to do that when I took the pics. I can certainly get that info if it will help.

Thanks again for your help.

What type of drive is on the rear of the engine? Standard shift/clutch, automatic (automotive style), hydrostatic drive, etc? Can you post a picture of the valve cover, in particular the front, spark plug side? Need to see if it has a "dog leg", or straight.
Edit: Just noticed it has the dogleg. That means it is the later style (1981 or newer) hydraulic lifter engine, with a cast crank, and the large crank pilot/flange.
I have no idea, what might be inside the engine, that might be different then the car/truck engines.

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I seriously doubt if there is a different rear block-bell housing rear flange bolt pattern. It would be cost prohibitive to make a major change for a low volume application. There could be a special adapter similar to the 727 transmission adapter, although from the photo there appears to be an industrial high mount starter bell housing bolted directly to the block. My bet is: the special bell housing is the adapter and it accepts the standard slant six bell housing bolt pattern.

FYI, the rear flange of a slant six block is the same for both an automatic and a manual transmission.
The crank for a manual transmission needs to be drilled and honed for a pilot bushing that accepts the manual transmission input shaft. A cast crank rear crank flange that is drilled may or may not be honed to size from the factory. A non honed to size rear crank bore does not work well with a manual transmission. You can pound a pilot bore bushing into a non honed crank bore, but the undersize condition causes the bushing to distort and lock on to the transmission output shaft.


something about '67/'68 there being a change in crank size That is almost correct. In that time frame the rear crank flange diameter, the ring that centers the flywheel or flex plate, was increased is diameter. There are simple adapters that fit over the small diameter flanges to bring them up to the large diameter size. Folks here at .org have those for sale. But for complete simplicity, I would go with an 81 and later slant to stay with hydraulic lifters.

Is the slant engine in the apparatus power by unleaded gasoline? If so I doubt if there are any internal engine differences from other slants of that era. From the photo, the oil pan is a front sump. That is unusual, light truck motors of that era are rear sump. Your front sump oil pan would also have a unique oil pick up tube. Those two items would need to be moved from your existing motor over to the replacement.

The distributor has a vacuum pod, so it is either a points or an electronic distributor and not a 'Lean Burn' as was used on the automotive slant engines of that era. The distributor is another item that you would want to swap over if you install another 81 or later slant motor.

Last question, where are you located? There maybe a .org member in the area that could assist you with the search for a replacement engine.

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I would bet good money there is no special unusual bellhousing pattern or other such deviation from ordinary car/truck configuration. By all appearances this is an '81-'87 225 engine without automotive emission controls and with some application-specific bolt-ons: starter; alternator bracket; speed governor, possibly the oil pan and pickup. It's got a pre-1970 carburetor which is almost certainly not original to this 1988 machine (and that lower spring running to one of the governor levers has definitely been stretched/hacked). All of this equipment can be swapped onto any Slant-6 engine. The '81-up engines have hydraulic lifters, as has been mentioned; '80 and earlier engines have solid lifters which require periodic adjustment—it's not difficult (valve adjustment procedure). If needed a better carburetor can be installed and that governor spring setup put back in appropriate condition.

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Thank you for the quick and helpful replies!

The machine is located in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada. Any assistance locating an engine would be much appreciated.

The engine is fueled by regular unleaded gasoline. The drive is hydrostatic, direct connection of the engine to the pumps (one for drive and steering functions, one for lifting functions) with no shifter or clutch.

I'll take some more pictures this weekend and post them soon, specifically the bellhousing and rear drive setup. I'll also look for some more identifying numbers.

From what I'm reading so far it sounds like an '81 and up engine should be almost a direct swap, possibly needing a few parts to be relocated to fit the mounting situation in our machine such as the oil pan, starter, alternator. There is a lot of room under the engine so maybe a rear sump pan would fit without having to make changes. A '68-'81 engine sounds like it should also work, but will have solid lifters that will require periodic adjustment.

Yes the carb is a bit of an anomaly, and is on our list of things to replace or rebuild soon as it is suspected to be leaking a bit causing the engine to run on after being shut off. If there is a better choice of carb we would certainly be willing to acquire one, even to have as a spare. We are slowly acquiring replacement parts to have on hand if/when problems arise to minimize down time during repairs. Any direction for where to look for hard to find parts would be great.

I've sent you a PM.

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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Looks like the Carb is a Holley 1920 rotated 90⁰ from the typical passenger car orientation, possibly to be used with the governor assembly.

The engine also has the factory lifting bracket attached!

Good luck with your machine.

Greg

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Hi all,

here are some pics of the bellhousing and the reduction/adapter plates for the hydraulic pumps. The numbers stamped into them are 4G28016 (above) and 4038006 (lower), and below that is AF 1. Please disregard the apparent oil leak on top of the pumps, we just had the hoses changed.

Also including a pic of the machine in case you are interested to see what it does.

Here are a couple of closer pics of the carb, and one of the number on the left side of the block, 4343 730.

I guess it might help to say that although the ideal would be to find a running engine in good condition, ready to just swap in, I realize that may not be easy to come by. I'm prepared to do a full rebuild if necessary, but the aim is a direct bolt up without getting into adapter plates, moving engine mounts, etc. Shipping a decent engine from anywhere in the US or Canada is definitely an option. I bring in parts for this machine from all over so it's just what has to be done.

Interesting apparatus, thanks for the photos.
Finding a like new/completely rebuilt stock slant maybe a difficult proposition.
Occasionally slants that have been built for some racing application then never installed show up, but you need one real close to stock.
I am thinking it maybe easier to source a slant from an 81 / 87 Dodge D150 either from a pull a part or by buying one of those trucks for the motor, or just pulling the existing motor and then going through the engine rebuilt process during the off season. At least you will know what you have.
If you do go through the rebuild process your self, make pre arrangements with the machine shop that you will be using for hot tanking and boring the cylinders, renewing the cylinder head and turning the crank. Most are really busy and they may have a long lead time.
There is nothing tricky about disassembling - reassembling a slant. There are many folks here that can help with tips and part sources.
Question, what makes you think the existing engine needs a rebuild?
Is there an hour meter on the engine?
Have you checked static compression?
Is it burning oil or have a low power output or an internal knock?
Is there a gauge for oil pressure?

And thanks again for the photos.

_________________
Doo Ron Ron and the Duke of Earl are friends of mine.....
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In your "reduction" reference I'll assume you're referring to size of the mount, rather than speed of the pumps, as 1800's the industry standard. As those're deadhead pumps, that leaves me wondering what's in that deep a bell housing besides the flywheel.

To that end; would you be kind enough to describe your operating procedure for a lift?

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Thanks again for the suggestions. An 81-87 D150 might actually be found around here with a bit of effort, so I'll start looking.

We have several good shops in town that can do a full rebuild for a fair price and in a reasonable time frame, so if we can't find a spare then eventually we will go down that road. We do have the skill/experience within in our organization to do it ourselves if need be, but will likely just pull the engine and send to a shop.

As for the current engine, there is nothing indicating an immediate need for a rebuild. This is a forward planning exercise. The machine could easily give us 20 years or more of service if we stay on top of maintenance and operate it responsibly, which we do, but eventually the engine will need a rebuild or a major repair and we'd rather just have another one ready to swap in. Actually we just bought a new hour meter this season, the old one stopped working years ago so hours unknown since last rebuild, which was early 2000's. But I would estimate about 5000 hrs on the engine since then. As I said, I've recently inherited the care and feeding of this machine and I'm making progress one step at a time. Rigging came first, then hydraulics, now attention is on engine and other mechanical like steering and drive components. It's coming along.

Reduction plates... yes, I meant the step down sizes for the mount, not gear reduction. I agree, there's some magic going on inside that bellhousing but I don't know exactly what. One day we'll open it up and find out I guess but for now it runs fine so not concerned.

As for lift procedure, not sure what you mean. Most boats have sling positions marked so a starting point is to line up with those, although that's easier done at launch when the boat is on land, than haul out when the boat is in the water. Sling lengths and spacing are adjustable to some degree. This is an older machine so the load bars lift one end on both sides at the same time, or all four corners together, but the individual points do not move independently like newer machines. One corner has an adjuster that lifts or lowers just that corner a small amount, and changes both the heel and alignment. It isn't used much during launch but helps during haul out when fine tuning at the cradle or blocking site. The hydraulics have quite enough pressure to operate all control functions at idle for small controlled movements without bogging the engine, so throttle is only applied after a control valve is fully open, and released before closing. So idle for low speed maneuvering and tight turns or small lift/lower movements, and full throttle for straight ahead driving over longer distance with very minor steering corrections, or large lift/lower movements. Despite the simplicity of the controls it's actually pretty good at its job if you have an operator with some patience and a good spatial awareness.