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 Post subject: First Hi Pro /6 ? *PIC*
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 7:09 pm 
Hello All:

This is my first post to this board for which I have been reading a month or two. I have a 64 Valiant with a New Proccess 4sp(just installed 10" clutch), 2.92:1 8 3/4 Posi, and 225" engine with later factory electronic ignition(17 initial, 38 total), 74 2brrl manifold and Carter carb.

I built this car 10 yrs ago for a girlfriend, and unlike most ex's, this one returned the car to me a few years ago when she began driving new cars.

Was going to sell it, but have fallen in love after a couple years of gettin sideways in the rain of winter.

I have a couple of questions as I move to improve the car for winter daily driving and occasional drag strip tuning.

The engine is tired and was originally a 1 brl. The cam must be tiny, since it has tons of torque but goes flat at 3200 rpm. Someone just gave me a 69 225" core engine, and I am looking to build it into a mild, hi 13 sec ride.

Let me say that I am an accomplished engine builder, tuner, and racer...I have been racing Pontiacs for 20 yrs and just finished degreeing the cam in the new 600hp stroker engine for my daily driver 64 GTO. I just pulled the 50k mile old 455 that had me in the 11.60's at 118 on my regular 255/60/15 radials for the last 4 years or so...I have a CNC mill and lathe in my dining room(you can see I am single, LOL), so I can build or modify just about anything I would need for this project. I also have my own valve grinding equipment, and access to flow benches and such. Also, I am an electronics engineer, and the end goal of this /6 buildup is to have a test bed for my home made EFI and data acquisition system. I have split headers for the car, and a dual 1 brrl intake with carbs that I will convert to a single throttle body for the injection(I might be willing to trade intake and carbs for a single four aluminum maniifiold).

That said...here is my project and questions. I want a zero deck engine and have been reading Dougs articles. I believe the best approach is the 198" rods and one of the metric pistons. However, in all my readings, I have not seen mention of the approx cc's of typical /6 heads.

What can I expect for cc's?

Is there any rules of thumb for cam selection that are different than for V8's? I run a mech roller in my GTO and use it as a driver 286-292@.020", 256-260@.050", .590 net lift, on a lobe sep of 110 installed at 102 for the low, 9.02:1 compression that I run. I'm not so much looking for specific numbers for size or profiles(I will have the cam custom ground), as guidlines for engine behaviour with different lobe separations that might be different than found in a V8 engine, installed centerlines, or typical duration @ .020,.050 and lift specs for 13 second rides.

Will larger torsion bars improve handling, or should I just get a sway bar? It already has multi leaf rear springs and handles decent with 2056014 tires, but it seems to have more body roll than I would like.

Last, one thing I never changed was the steering box...it feels like about 50 turns(ok, 7) lock to lock...its horrible trying to retain control in a slide or burnout with this box. What should I look for as a replacement box.

Thanks in advance for any help, this is a summer engine build that I hope to be able to install the injection by fall. I currently have most of the prototype on my workbench, and need to pull the engine from the car to make upgrades to the fuel system and such in preparation for the project.

Karl

Image
gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 8:02 pm 
With that much fabrication gear availible and EFI, the best approach would probably be to add a turbo. You could probably put that into the 13's with a very mild cam, under 260 degrees duration. The small bore and long stroke of a slant six makes it well suited to setups that maximize low RPM torque.

As for the handling, the best setup IMHO is Addco sway bars front and rear, good shocks, and high performance tires. If it's bottoming out occasionally, then I would suggest upgrading to stiffer torsion bars, but they may not be necessary if you don't have that particular problem. The difference with sway bars is amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 10:03 pm 
Hey, I wouldn't be the one to ask about engine stuff but I have search around a lot to find ways to make my 65 Cuda handle so if you want to change your steering box or any other suspension stuff I would recommend going to <A HREF="http://www.firmfeel.com">www.firmfeel.com</A> , or going to www. magnumforceracing.com. They have a lot of stuff at these two including better ratio steering boxes, kits to switch to coilovers in front, sway bars, and magnum even has a full tube Fram front end with rack and pinion for old Mopars if you got enough dough for them. Well, that’s my two cents.

http://www.firmfeel.com
Starbravo@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 10:51 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Hey i wouldn't be the one to ask about engine
: stuff but i have search around alot to find
: ways to make my 65 cuda handle so if you
: want to change your steering box or any
: other suspension stuff i would recomend
: going to <A HREF="http://www.firmfeel.com">www.firmfeel.com</A> , or going to
: www. magnumforceracing.com. they have alot
: of stuff at these two including better ratio
: steering boxes, kits to switch to coilovers
: in front, sway bars, and magnum even has a
: full tube fram front end with rack and
: pinion for old mopars if you got enough
: dough for them. well thats my two cents.


Thanks for the responses Matt & Brett:

I have no issues currently with bottoming out, in fact, I think it handles pretty well. The only issues are a little wheel hop during some burnouts(wet or dry, and I know how to solve that) and too much body roll. I will check out the links to the web sites Matt. A local company to me here in Portland OR, just started making sway bars for early Mopars...Quickor engineering. I think I will start with that route.

I am inclined to stick with natural aspiration. Although I have nothing against power adders, and appreciate a nice ride no matter how it gets its power(I was putting NOS on my go kart and Honda 90 20 years ago), my interests lay in carbs and/or injection. Since I want to finish my fuel injection for this car as a test mule for my 70 GTO autocross car, I don't want the added time to figure fuel curves and such for parameters(power adders) that won't exist on the final unit.

Now once I've got my system worked out...a turbo or small blower might be nice to play with...

Thanks

Karl Boe

gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 5:59 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: Thanks for the responses Matt & Brett: I
: have no issues currently with bottoming out,
: in fact, I think it handles pretty well. The
: only issues are a little wheel hop during
: some burnouts(wet or dry, and I know how to
: solve that) and too much body roll. I will
: check out the links to the web sites Matt. A
: local company to me here in Portland OR,
: just started making sway bars for early
: Mopars...Quickor engineering. I think I will
: start with that route.
:
: I am inclined to stick with natural aspiration.
: Although I have nothing against power
: adders, and appreciate a nice ride no matter
: how it gets its power(I was putting NOS on
: my go kart and Honda 90 20 years ago), my
: interests lay in carbs and/or injection.
: Since I want to finish my fuel injection for
: this car as a test mule for my 70 GTO
: autocross car, I don't want the added time
: to figure fuel curves and such for
: parameters(power adders) that won't exist on
: the final unit.
:
: Now once I've got my system worked out...a
: turbo or small blower might be nice to play
: with...
:
: Thanks
:
: Karl Boe


Hey Karl,

Welcome to the site. Sounds like you have a lot of fabrication power to apply to this project, which is great. It also sounds like your definition of "driver" and mine are similar. I run a 250 @ 0.050" cam in my '64 Dart and have clocked in 14.30s (traction limited) in street trim. I have been favoring natural aspiration up to now as well. One thing about slants is that they can take a lot of compression on pump gas, assuming you run a decent size cam. I run more than 10.5:1 on my engine on 92 octane. The Clifford 4bbl intakes are best for top-end power, and flow much better than the 2X1 offy above 3500 RPM. A good trick is to use SB Chev or Ford valves, which are almost the same length as stock slant valves. There is a ton of power to be made from headwork on this engine. You should be able to get it into the 13s with some good engineering, especially with such a light car.

I have been building my car for road racing duty over the last 2-3 years. For your car, I would recommend slightly stiffer T-bars (0.890" or so), and a front sway bar. A little more Camber (1/2-1 deg neg) and caster will help too (1.5-2 deg pos). This will give you awesome handling, but will still ride well. A rear sway bar will not appreciably help handling, just get good leafs. You can get a 20:1 steering gear (worm and sector) from Koller Dodge or Firm Feel for about $110.

Have fun!

Lou


lmadsen@email.unc.edu


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 6:54 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: I have a CNC mill and lathe in my dining room
: (you can see I am single, LOL), so I can build
: or modify just about anything I would need for
: this project.

*************************************************
Really?! If you're interested, I might have a small lathe project you could do for me.
:
: I also have my own valve grinding equipment,
: and access to flow benches and such.
**************************************************
Hmmmm. Now this is interesting. If, by chance, you do a flow test on a stock head, then also on your modified head, would you be good enough to share the particulars with the rest of us?...in particular Doug, the resident /6 guru?
:
: Also, I am an electronics engineer, and the
: end goal of this /6 buildup is to have a test
: bed for my home made EFI and data acquisition
: system.
*************************************************
Might I suggest you read through the article(s) on the GM, EFI conversion in the articles section of this board?

Roger

GTS225@aol.com


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 Post subject: NAWS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 8:07 am 
Please dont say NOS. Everytime someone does, I think of the Fast and the Clueless.

Sorry... one of my pet peeves.


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 Post subject: Re: NAWS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 12:23 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Please dont say NOS. Everytime someone does, I
: think of the Fast and the Clueless.
:
: Sorry... one of my pet peeves.


Notice I did not type "NAWS", however, I agree. NOS is a company, Nitrous Oxide Systems. My friends and I have always said "Nitrous" or "n""O""S"...I am constantly and diligently trying to convert the kids in my neighborhood...naws just sounds idiotic to me.

I hate to think what they are going to do to the poor GTO in the new movie...

Karl

gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 12:37 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
:
: *************************************************
: Really?! If you're interested, I might have a
: small lathe project you could do for me.
:
: **************************************************
: Hmmmm. Now this is interesting. If, by chance,
: you do a flow test on a stock head, then
: also on your modified head, would you be
: good enough to share the particulars with
: the rest of us?...in particular Doug, the
: resident /6 guru?
:
: *************************************************
: Might I suggest you read through the article(s)
: on the GM, EFI conversion in the articles
: section of this board?
:
: Roger


Hi Roger:

I have read through the articles. I am not retro fitting a factory system, although the info in those articles is helpful, it is similar material to many others I have read. The main reason I am doing this project is implement features and controls which do not exist in factory(or aftermarket) systems, and have the ability to change the code or add features on a whim.

All electronics and software are of my own design. I have 90% of the data acquisition and communications protocol software finished and working. I also have a complete, working digital ignition I designed to incorporate in the future. Pretty much, I am at the point of needing to build an engine and convert the fuel system. I did like the article on the dual throttle body setup..this is the manifold I have, and I have been going back and forth on whether to use a single or dual throttle body...really haven't decided yet.

Later in the summer, when I have the head work completed, I would be more than happy to share my results.

On your lathe project...my stuff is just desktop home machining equipment...however, it does everything a large machine will do except large parts. They are big enough to work on pistons, brackets, fuel injection parts...etc. Email me direct and I might be willing to help you out...

Thanks

Karl

gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 12:54 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Hey Karl,
:
: Welcome to the site. Sounds like you have a lot
: of fabrication power to apply to this
: project, which is great. It also sounds like
: your definition of "driver" and
: mine are similar. I run a 250 @ 0.050"
: cam in my '64 Dart and have clocked in
: 14.30s (traction limited) in street trim. I
: have been favoring natural aspiration up to
: now as well. One thing about slants is that
: they can take a lot of compression on pump
: gas, assuming you run a decent size cam. I
: run more than 10.5:1 on my engine on 92
: octane. The Clifford 4bbl intakes are best
: for top-end power, and flow much better than
: the 2X1 offy above 3500 RPM. A good trick is
: to use SB Chev or Ford valves, which are
: almost the same length as stock slant
: valves. There is a ton of power to be made
: from headwork on this engine. You should be
: able to get it into the 13s with some good
: engineering, especially with such a light
: car.
:
: I have been building my car for road racing
: duty over the last 2-3 years. For your car,
: I would recommend slightly stiffer T-bars
: (0.890" or so), and a front sway bar. A
: little more Camber (1/2-1 deg neg) and
: caster will help too (1.5-2 deg pos). This
: will give you awesome handling, but will
: still ride well. A rear sway bar will not
: appreciably help handling, just get good
: leafs. You can get a 20:1 steering gear
: (worm and sector) from Koller Dodge or Firm
: Feel for about $110.
:
: Have fun!
:
: Lou


Hi Lou:

Thanks for the info...the handling and suspension setup numbers are right up my alley and I will look into your suggestions. The torsion bars in there now are .625".

I have always been able to run larger cams than most people...partly because I owned a carb and distributor shop for a good portion of my life, and I am a picky tuner...and partly because I am not afraid to experiment, or try things when the sheep tell me I'm wrong. I wrote a couple spreadsheets to help me choose cams...I wrote one that gives the effective compression of the engine based on the installed centerline and intake valve closing point. You choose the max effective compression usable for your fuel and requirements, then choose the largest intake profile that will place the intake valve closing point where you want it. Of course, other factors need be considered...rpm range for one. The installed centerline helps place the rpm range. So you pick a cam with max open to close duration for the effective compression you want, choose a lobe separation that gives the power band charactaristics you want, install the centerline to set the intake valve closing, and of course...once these parameters are chosen...get the most .050" duration and lift that can be found w/o increaseing your seat to seat duration.

I have used this method of cam selection on many different engine combos, and have yet to be dissapointed in the outcome.

By the way...anyone know what the rocker ratio is on these sixers...and are there any other choices?

CC's for the heads???

Thanks

Karl

gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 1:34 pm 
SL6 combustion chambers cc @ 54 to 60 cc's, most stock heads (uncut) are around 58cc

You have a nice combo coming together. The 64 Valiant 2 Dr Post will be a great little sleeper.
Rework the suspension with stiffer T. bars / anti-sway bars and you will surprise many "fancy" sports cars.

With your equipment and experience, the SL6 rebuild will be easy. As everyone has already noted, head work is where the power hides so spend some time there. Another improvement is to get the rotating weight reduced. (Crank & con rod deburring and a light piston)
DD
(User Above) wrote:
:
: Hello All: This is my first post to this board
: for which I have been reading a month or
: two. I have a 64 Valiant with a New Proccess
: 4sp(just installed 10" clutch), 2.92:1
: 8 3/4 Posi, and 225" engine with later
: factory electronic ignition(17 initial, 38
: total), 74 2brrl manifold and Carter carb.
:
: I built this car 10 yrs ago for a girlfriend,
: and unlike most ex's, this one returned the
: car to me a few years ago when she began
: driving new cars.
:
: Was going to sell it, but have fallen in love
: after a couple years of gettin sideways in
: the rain of winter.
:
: I have a couple of questions as I move to
: improve the car for winter daily driving and
: occasional drag strip tuning.
:
: The engine is tired and was originally a 1 brl.
: The cam must be tiny, since it has tons of
: torque but goes flat at 3200 rpm. Someone
: just gave me a 69 225" core engine, and
: I am looking to build it into a mild, hi 13
: sec ride.
:
: Let me say that I am an accomplished engine
: builder, tuner, and racer...I have been
: racing Pontiacs for 20 yrs and just finished
: degreeing the cam in the new 600hp stroker
: engine for my daily driver 64 GTO. I just
: pulled the 50k mile old 455 that had me in
: the 11.60's at 118 on my regular 255/60/15
: radials for the last 4 years or so...I have
: a CNC mill and lathe in my dining room(you
: can see I am single, LOL), so I can build or
: modify just about anything I would need for
: this project. I also have my own valve
: grinding equipment, and access to flow
: benches and such. Also, I am an electronics
: engineer, and the end goal of this /6
: buildup is to have a test bed for my home
: made EFI and data acquisition system. I have
: split headers for the car, and a dual 1 brrl
: intake with carbs that I will convert to a
: single throttle body for the injection(I
: might be willing to trade intake and carbs
: for a single four aluminum maniifiold).
:
: That said...here is my project and questions. I
: want a zero deck engine and have been
: reading Dougs articles. I believe the best
: approach is the 198" rods and one of
: the metric pistons. However, in all my
: readings, I have not seen mention of the
: approx cc's of typical /6 heads.
:
: What can I expect for cc's?
:
: Is there any rules of thumb for cam selection
: that are different than for V8's? I run a
: mech roller in my GTO and use it as a driver
: 286-292@.020", 256-260@.050", .590
: net lift, on a lobe sep of 110 installed at
: 102 for the low, 9.02:1 compression that I
: run. I'm not so much looking for specific
: numbers for size or profiles(I will have the
: cam custom ground), as guidlines for engine
: behaviour with different lobe separations
: that might be different than found in a V8
: engine, installed centerlines, or typical
: duration @ .020,.050 and lift specs for 13
: second rides.
:
: Will larger torsion bars improve handling, or
: should I just get a sway bar? It already has
: multi leaf rear springs and handles decent
: with 2056014 tires, but it seems to have
: more body roll than I would like.
:
: Last, one thing I never changed was the
: steering box...it feels like about 50
: turns(ok, 7) lock to lock...its horrible
: trying to retain control in a slide or
: burnout with this box. What should I look
: for as a replacement box.
:
: Thanks in advance for any help, this is a
: summer engine build that I hope to be able
: to install the injection by fall. I
: currently have most of the prototype on my
: workbench, and need to pull the engine from
: the car to make upgrades to the fuel system
: and such in preparation for the project.
:
: Karl


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 1:45 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: I have used this method of cam selection on
: many different engine combos, and have yet
: to be dissapointed in the outcome.


This spread sheet would be fun to play around with, kinda like a do-it yourself desktop dyno for cam selection.
:
: By the way...anyone know what the rocker ratio
: is on these sixers...and are there any other
: choices?

Advertized @ 1.5, the stock rockers check a little less (1.485 or so) Roller tip aluminum rockers come in anything from 1 5 through 1.7
:
: CC's for the heads???

The factory called-out 54 cc
DD


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 8:18 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Hi Roger: I have read through the articles. I
: am not retro fitting a factory system,
: although the info in those articles is
: helpful, it is similar material to many
: others I have read. The main reason I am
: doing this project is implement features and
: controls which do not exist in factory(or
: aftermarket) systems, and have the ability
: to change the code or add features on a
: whim.
:
: All electronics and software are of my own
: design. I have 90% of the data acquisition
: and communications protocol software
: finished and working. I also have a
: complete, working digital ignition I
: designed to incorporate in the future.
: Pretty much, I am at the point of needing to
: build an engine and convert the fuel system.
: I did like the article on the dual throttle
: body setup..this is the manifold I have, and
: I have been going back and forth on whether
: to use a single or dual throttle
: body...really haven't decided yet.
:
: Later in the summer, when I have the head work
: completed, I would be more than happy to
: share my results.
:
: On your lathe project...my stuff is just
: desktop home machining equipment...however,
: it does everything a large machine will do
: except large parts. They are big enough to
: work on pistons, brackets, fuel injection
: parts...etc. Email me direct and I might be
: willing to help you out...
: Thanks
: Karl


When I converted to disc brakes, I rebuilt the front end using urethane bushings, added front and rear sway bars, and extended the threads on the strut rods to dial in 3.5 degrees of caster. Handling and high-speed stability improved dramatically. I later had frame connectors welded in place and handling got even better!
If you're interested in data acquisition with EFI check out <A HREF="http://www.turbo-link.com">www.turbo-link.com</A>. I'm always interested in learning more about fuel injection conversions. Perhaps you could post some links to the other articles with similar material to the EFI articles found here.

Bob D



BBobbias@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 12:51 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: When I converted to disc brakes, I rebuilt the
: front end using urethane bushings, added
: front and rear sway bars, and extended the
: threads on the strut rods to dial in 3.5
: degrees of caster. Handling and high-speed
: stability improved dramatically. I later had
: frame connectors welded in place and
: handling got even better!
: If you're interested in data acquisition with
: EFI check out <A HREF="http://www.turbo-link.com">www.turbo-link.com</A> . I'm
: always interested in learning more about
: fuel injection conversions. Perhaps you
: could post some links to the other articles
: with similar material to the EFI articles
: found here.
:
: Bob D


Hi Bob:

Thats a cool web site, makes me wish I had a Grand National...and quite reasonably priced products, I felt.

I wasn't sure how to do links on this board, so I added a URL in the optional links section...I don't know as I'm typing how that is incorporated in this post. I will assume it appears at the bottom like a picture would. This link is to a low cost injection controller you can build yourself...it is not the most organized site I've ever seen, but if you poke around...you'll find some really good info, especially for the home builder.

Here is another link...I am trying just typing this link to see if the software picks it up...if it doesn't, obviously you can type it into an address line in a browser. This link is a great site of resources on fuel injection, and forums and email lists for people hacking factory systems.

<A HREF="http://www.diy-efi.org/">http://www.diy-efi.org/</A>

I run all urethane in my GTOs and will never go back to plain rubber. I like your frame connector suggestion.

Thanks

Karl

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
gearhead@spiritone.com


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 Post subject: Re: First Hi Pro /6 ?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 6:43 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: Hi Bob: Thats a cool web site, makes me wish I
: had a Grand National...and quite reasonably
: priced products, I felt.
:
: I wasn't sure how to do links on this board, so
: I added a URL in the optional links
: section...I don't know as I'm typing how
: that is incorporated in this post. I will
: assume it appears at the bottom like a
: picture would. This link is to a low cost
: injection controller you can build
: yourself...it is not the most organized site
: I've ever seen, but if you poke
: around...you'll find some really good info,
: especially for the home builder.
:
: Here is another link...I am trying just typing
: this link to see if the software picks it
: up...if it doesn't, obviously you can type
: it into an address line in a browser. This
: link is a great site of resources on fuel
: injection, and forums and email lists for
: people hacking factory systems.
:
: <A HREF="http://www.diy-efi.org/">http://www.diy-efi.org/</A>
:
: I run all urethane in my GTOs and will never go
: back to plain rubber. I like your frame
: connector suggestion.
: Thanks
: Karl


Yes, I've seen these two sites and agree with you on the organization point. I think that the average Saturday mechanic would have a problem trying to do an EFI conversion with only information provided by these sites and without a lot of additional research. But, I also agree that there is a lot of useful information there. I have been especially interested in the EPROM programming equipment. <A HREF="http://www.xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm">http://www.xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm</A> that is linked from the diy_efi site. Do you plan on developing that kind of capability?
By the way I'm impressed by the fact that someone who has owned a GTO is interested in, and can accept the challenge of building a hi-pro SL6. Too often these folks, including Chrysler enthusiasts, look down their noses at a SL6. I remember a few years back reading an article in one of the Chrysler magazines where they had swapped out a SL6 and "put it in the trash where it belonged". Very imaginative! The magazine is now out of business.
I wish someone could have taken the SL6 out of the trash, put a turbo on it, and then challenged their converted big block A-body to a race on the road that goes out the back side of Death Valley. Not me though, that road scared the hell out of me!:-0
Bob D

http://www.xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm
BBobbias@aol.com


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