Slant *        6        Forum
Home Home Home
The Place to Go for Slant Six Info!
Click here to help support the Slant Six Forum!
It is currently Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:19 am

All times are UTC-08:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:41 pm 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis
Car Model: 1966 Valiant 200, Super 225
So I've been cleaning up my Valiant, and decided to take out the under dash gauges and the ignition booster and the fancy stereo with the mega-bass in the trunk. There are a s--t ton of wires to deal with. I'm trying to go back to the original wiring. My problem now is that many wires have been cut and spliced with different colored wires running to different places. It's a puzzle to be sure, and I'm no electrical expert. I'm trying to figure out the connections from the distibutor to the ignition coil to the alternator with the regulator to power/battery!? I'm posting some photos with my questions on the photos, if you'd be kind enough to take a look.
Thanks in advance!!


Attachments:
Super 226, distributor.jpg
Super 226, distributor.jpg [ 22.86 KiB | Viewed 795 times ]
Super 225 Ignition Coil.jpg
Super 225 Ignition Coil.jpg [ 27.33 KiB | Viewed 795 times ]
Super 225, alternator.jpg
Super 225, alternator.jpg [ 27.49 KiB | Viewed 795 times ]
Super 225, top view of alternator.jpg
Super 225, top view of alternator.jpg [ 26.28 KiB | Viewed 795 times ]
Super 225, bulkhead connectort.jpg
Super 225, bulkhead connectort.jpg [ 28.37 KiB | Viewed 795 times ]
Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:50 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23552
Location: North America
Car Model:
1966 Valiant wiring diagrams here and here

1966 Plymouth/Valiant factory service manual (with more detailed diagrams) here

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:08 pm 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis
Car Model: 1966 Valiant 200, Super 225
Thanks Dan. I've been using the wiring diagrams. But I'm only seeing one wire coming out of the side of the distributor, and I have two. What's up with that?
Also, there are absolutely no markings on the alternator so I'm not sure which is Pos. and which is Neg. and if the regulator on the alternator complicates that.
I'm not sure if the PO took it out, but I don't see a separate ignition ballast anywhere on the firewall.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:56 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7703
Location: SW Washington
Car Model: 1965 Plymouth Barracuda, 1954 Dodge C1-B8
The black and white wires from the distributor are the pickup coil. These need to be connected to an electronic ignition module of some type. What ignition box do you have? Find the wiring diagram(s) for that box so you'll know how to connect it to the distributor's magnetic pickup and the ignition coil. If you want points and a ballast resistor you'll need to buy them. I suggest working with the electronic ignition.

That looks like a Powermaster or other 'internally regulated' alternator. The little box on the back of the alternator is the regulator. The large terminal (1/4" stud) from the alternator is the output and can be wired according to the factory routing, but better than that is to shunt the power around the bulkhead connector. The alternator is grounded through the bracket and block so they need to have good electrical contact.

_________________
Joshua


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:18 pm 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis
Car Model: 1966 Valiant 200, Super 225
OK so it turns out one of the things I took off with the gauges and radio and such was a Street-fire Ignition box! I reinstalled it. That took care off some loose ends. Thanks for mentioning that.
So I'm down to the alternator - does the wire from the 1/4 inch terminal run to the starter relay with a fusible link? and where does the other lead go - maybe to the ignition switch (dark blue w tracer)? I'm trying to trace through my wiring diagrams.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:57 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7703
Location: SW Washington
Car Model: 1965 Plymouth Barracuda, 1954 Dodge C1-B8
Craig Smith wrote:
OK so it turns out one of the things I took off with the gauges and radio and such was a Street-fire Ignition box! I reinstalled it. That took care off some loose ends. Thanks for mentioning that.


You're welcome!

Craig Smith wrote:
So I'm down to the alternator - does the wire from the 1/4 inch terminal run to the starter relay with a fusible link? and where does the other lead go - maybe to the ignition switch (dark blue w tracer)? I'm trying to trace through my wiring diagrams.


The alternator's big output wire will go to the bulkhead connector on its way to the ammeter, but I would not run it that way. I would tie it together with the power feed coming from the battery. Don't disconnect anything, but bridge the connections. This disables the ammeter, but keeps heavy charging currents from going through the bulkhead connector and potentially melting it if the connections are poor. The fusible link should be on the battery feed originally, not the alternator feed, but adding one to the alternator feed is a good idea.

The regulator on the alternator does not get connected anywhere else. If you want to remove that regulator and add the dual-terminal electronic regulator I can help with that. I had one of those alternators come to me and I excised that little regulator in favor of one that can be purchased easily.

_________________
Joshua


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:29 pm 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis
Car Model: 1966 Valiant 200, Super 225
I GIVE UP! I guess I just don't know enough about electrical issues and wiring (which I knew before I started this project), but I thought I'd take on a challenge. OOpsie!
I just hooked up the two wires from the ammeter so I could get some power in the dash. I ran them to the wire from the alternator to the fusible link. I hooked up the battery and promptly melted both the ammeter wires. I quickly disconnected the battery but there was so much smoke I thought there was a fire behind the dash. Luckily not. I'm probably lucky it just melted the two wires.
I still think that I should be able to figure it out, but I'm going to cut my losses and call around tomorrow to see if I can find someone to do it for me. I have a feeling it will cost more than the car is worth but I want to get it done so I can drive it before winter.
Should have just left the PO gauges and stereo alone. Live and learn. Thanks for the advice, though. I did learn quite a lot.
Craig


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:00 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23552
Location: North America
Car Model:
Oof. It's rough to have to admit defeat like that, but sometimes realistic. It sounds like the previous owner did a real hack-and-slash job on the car's electrics. :-(

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:28 am 
Offline
4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Lawrence, PA
Car Model: 84 D-100
My particular \6 is in an 84 pickup. Was this wiring still a concern by then? Or had the factory fixed the design by then?
Thanks!


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:30 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:25 pm
Posts: 5486
Location: Downeast Maine
Car Model:
Craig, the melting of wires is an opportunity to lean how your car is wired. Excepting the electronic ignition components which are what the factory used after 1973 the rest of the electrical system can put back to 1966 stock per the diagrams Dan provided.

When I got my 67 Dart in 2008 its electrical system had been hacked up, there were several melted bulkhead connections that was the charging circuit that runs from the alternator to amp gauge and to battery. I filed a plastic grocery store bag with unnecessary wire from several different long gone sound systems, and others that went no where.

It was apparent that to have a reliable electrical system each and every wire in that car had to be traced to determine any problems. It was at first a big confusing mess, so a plan was put into action. I copied the wire diagrams for 1967 Dart, and looked at each circuit one at a time, repaired any corroded brass connections, bad wire, from its beginning at fuse block to its end. Using a clip board with a hand drawn diagram of the one circuit being inspected showing every connection, color & gauge of wire made tracing it in the car much easier. I also installed a new blade type fuse block replacing the corroded glass tube type fuses, and installed a new bulkhead connector and its three connectors found on the engine side of fire wall. As each circuit was inspected, and repaired as needed, it got crossed off the factory diagram.

By tackling one circuit at a time you will learn where it is found in the car, how that circuit functions, and if it operates at a reduced voltage. I had gauges that did not work, lights not working, directional signals not working, a lot of voltage drop in the charging circuit; it was a mess.

When I came across some aspect that did not make sense, I posted here for help. Baby steps. After a few weeks working in my unheated garage in March, in Maine with both bucket seats removed so I could lay on the floor and access the dash easily, the job was done. Now I know every circuit, where it runs, how it works, and how to test it if needed.

My car had been converted to a stock Mopar electronic ignition, the circuit board powering the stock gauges needed to be repaired, a few jumper wires and some solder took care of that problem.

The result is I have not had any electrical problems since 2008, but one last summer. The power wire going to ignition switch never got fully attached to its spade on back of the switch and had worked loose. It took about 10 minutes to figure out the problem using a test light. Most of the time was burned contorting my old carcass to access under dash connections, and locating a few tools.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:46 am 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis
Car Model: 1966 Valiant 200, Super 225
I've been contorting my old carcass, too! That is great advice. For a novice isolating each connection is the way to go. In fact that is close to what I have been doing. I even got out my colored pencils to color my wiring diagrams and my circuits.

After getting my Valiant back from the garage it started and ran fine. No temp or gas gauge, though, the oil warning light is always on, and the heater blower motor did not work, which it had before. I opened the temp gauge and saw one problem - the tiny wires had broken. I tried breaking a 2A fuse and used that wire to solder the gauge wires! Guess what? Still didn't work (I probably soldered to the wrong places). I will get a replacement gauge and see if that does the trick.

The oil light: Do I have to replace the sender unit? I'm checking the wiring, that seems correct.
The tube off the bottom of the oil filter is still connected to the old aftermarket oil gauge. What should that connect to behind the dash?

The blower motor: I suspect the resistor needs to be replaced but I really don't want to mess with taking the whole heater unit down to check. Are there any easy work arounds to check the wiring on top of the box?
I have put in new fuses in the fuse block.

Thanks again!


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:38 am 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:25 pm
Posts: 5486
Location: Downeast Maine
Car Model:
Sorry I have not been on this site for while, and missed your September questions. I have an International truck rebuild project sucking up my time, along with helping a buddy resurrect his 1950 Bentley two very frustrating machines on many levels.

Craig:
Quote:
No temp or gas gauge, though


Behind gauge cluster mounted on its circuit board is a small rectangular metal box containing a set of points or depending on year of car points are mounted within fuel gauge. One of the points is mounted on a bi-metal spring and when said points are closed, 12v passes through the spring heating it up causing the points to open which begins cooling of the spring and points once again close. This heating and cooling or opening and closing produces a pulsing average of around 5 volts. The gauges also have a resistance coil that heats up with the pulsing 12v that acts like a resistance burner on an electric stove. Between the bi-metal spring, and coil in the gauge movement of gauge is smoothed out. This is why when one first starts the car fuel gauge slowly moves to it correct reading.

Where your car is 1966 I suspect the voltage limiter is housed within the fuel gauge.

Both these gauges are powered by a voltage limiter supplying 5 volts In each case power runs from limiter through gauge to a variable resister, and to ground. Fuel tank is just a resistance coil which an electrical contact attached to the float rides on. When fuel is low resistance is high about 78 ohms, when fuel level is high resistance is low around 7 ohms. And the temperature gauge sending unit uses a veritable resistor (thermister) that is activated by heat, its current flow is to gauge, resistor, and to ground.

To test these two circuits disconnect the lead from the fuel gauge at the tank sending unit, and measure voltage between that lead and a good ground with a voltage meter. A digital meter will bounce between zero and 12 volts if voltage regulator is working correctly. If you have pulsing voltage at the tank, check ground continuity between sending unit and body/frame of car. Mopar uses a steel ground strap that bridges between the metal fuel tube protruding from sending unit and metal fuel line to fuel pump. If this ground strap is not conducting for whatever reason, corrosion, missing the gauge will not work. The fix is to establish a good ground to the sending unit with a new ground strap, or a jumper made up of a length of wire to ground sending unit.

The temperature gauge also has a sending unit located close to the thermostat housing on top of the head. Test its lead form the gauge the same as the fuel tank gauge lead with a volt meter. If there is pulsing 12 volts two problems could be a foot, a bad ground between the sending unit, or the sending unit is not working. Never use Teflon tape or pipe dope on that sending unit's pipe tread as it can become an insulator interrupting the ground path.

If there is no pulsing 12 volts at both sending units, than the problem could be a defective voltage limiter, or no 12 volts supply is getting to the limiter.

Example of tank ground strap here, and voltage limiter here.

Quote:
The tube off the bottom of the oil filter is still connected to the old aftermarket oil gauge. What should that connect to behind the dash?

Your car has factory low oil pressure light not a gauge, so there is no where to connect that oil line to the factory gauge cluster.

Quote:
the oil warning light is always on

This light like the above uses the same current path, 12 volts to light to pressure switch than to ground. When oil pressure is normal the switch is open or off so no grounding. When pressure is too low, or engine is off & ign key is in run position light is on indicating a path to ground is good. I assume your oil pressure is good via reading the aftermarket gauge. Chances are the PO had a defective switch and decided to use an aftermarket oil pressure gauge rather than replace a defective factory switch. While you are under car remove the oil pressure relief valve located under a large hex nut on the oil pump assembly, and clean it per FSM instructions. Be careful not to scratch the piston, just remove the caked on sludge so it moves freely.

Oil pressure switch here.


Quote:
The tube off the bottom of the oil filter is still connected to the old aftermarket oil gauge. What should that connect to behind the dash?

Your car has factory low oil pressure light, so there is no where to connect that oil line to the factory gauge cluster. You can remove the after market plumbing and plug off or cap the Tee at the oil pump, or keep the gauge and use factory light as a secondary warning signal.

Quote:
The blower motor: I suspect the resistor needs to be replaced but I really don't want to mess with taking the whole heater unit down to check. Are there any easy work arounds to check the wiring on top of the box?


There are two resisters that can fail. But the motor should run on high speed it is is getting 12 volts even if the resistors are bad. Check the wiring from fuse block to three position switch, and to motor for continuity. I suspect that there is a bad connection, or blown fuse which will indicate a short somewhere in that circuit. Another way would be to remove the motor which protrudes into the engine compartment on passenger's side of fire wall held in place by 4 nuts, and apply 12 volts to it and see if it works. The body of the motor has to be grounded with a jumper to a good ground for it to work.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC



Image


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC-08:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited