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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:46 am 
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Hi Slant 6ers (and specifically, Dan),

I had one of my Phillips X-tremeVision tail bulbs apparently burn out half (one side of it) on the 62, after knocking it out of the socket a few times while moving stuff in the car. My fault.

Are these the best bulbs still, or are there cheaper replacements?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HW ... BJM85TDT9T

Can I use these in front turn/park lamps?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077F ... PDKIKX0DER

Just wondering what the state of the art is for 1157 replacements.

Thanks!

Lou

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:48 am 
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Before I saw who posted it or read the post, I experienced a sudden stabbing headache when I saw this headline after clicking "New posts". That's because at a certain other board where Darts and Valiants and related cars are discussed, there's yet another conversation about this topic, and yet again it's full of ignorance -> bad/dangerous advice -> ugly noise. Boring ol' facts will always lose to flashy marketing and advertising hype, especially when the subject is something like car lights, simultaneously life-safety equipment and pretty shiny things (but often it's either/or). There is a mountain of "LED bulb" trinkets on the market, all hyped as an "upgrade", most of which are abjectly dangerous to use.

Now I see who asked here and how, my beard's a little less droopy about it. Yes, these Philips sandwich-board style bulbs are the ones to get, if you can still get them—make sure what you receive matches the pic exactly. They're no longer made. Philips replaced them with two differently but equally inferior new designs, neither of which is optically compatible with many old-car lights. The issue is fresnel lenses, that's the type with the round "bullseye" in the middle with a series of rings around it (sometimes there are just round rings and not much bullseye; sometimes instead of round rings and a central circle there's a central rectangle and square rings around it). Each of the elements in these lens optics is designed to "look" directly at the filament, so a bulb is required that puts light out the front…keeping in mind that some of these lamps are designed such that the bulb is installed at an angle to the lens, not straight front-to-back. None of that matters with a filament bulb, which produces an equal amount of light in all directions (a spherical distribution).

Of the few legitimate LED bulbs out there, most of them produce zero light out the front, including both of the new-type Philips bulbs. They work OK in some (not all) lamps that use a reflector bowl behind the bulb and just have spreader optics shaped like little pillows or cross-hatches or ridge lines in the lens, but no-light-out-the-front makes them incompatible with this kind of lamp.

Here's an offhand partial list of fresnel-type lamps on relevant cars:

'60-'68 Valiant park/turn
'60-'63 Valiant brake/tail
'61-'62 Lancer park/turn
'62 Lancer brake/tail
'63-'69 Dart park/turn
'63-'64 Dart brake/tail
'70 Dart brake/tail

The bulb situation is in flux; one of the world's reputable light source makers (Tungsram, long affiliated with GE) is gearing up to launch a new line of LED signal bulbs that stand a good chance of working well in old-car lights. Samples are on the way to me. Once I've tested them, if they're as good as it looks like they might be, I'll shout about it on here.

There is no legitimate amber 1157 that works with fresnel lamps, and won't be for the foreseeable future. The Philips ones you linked are a no-go (no light out the front of the bulb).

Further info: there are a million vendors promising the moon and stars from their "LED bulbs". It's fine to buy from these places if what you want to do is play around with LEDs in your interior lights, trunk lights, etc where there's no safety issue, but nothing they sell should be put into a car's safety lights. Adequate performance of car lights is a lot more complicated than "Yep, it lights up" or "Yep, they look nice 'n' bright to me" or "Yep, I like 'em". The right amounts of light have to be distributed through a large range of vertical and horizontal angles, the ratio between bright and dim for brake/tail or park/turn has to be correct, the performance has to stay adequate even during prolonged operation (LED output droops with increased runtime if there's not adequate heatsinking, which in many "LED bulbs" there isn't), etc.

Unlike filament bulbs, which work correctly in any lamp they'll fit in, with LED bulbs it's important to carefully assess their performance in your particular lamps by comparing them side-by-side with the original incandescents as reasonably well described here.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:48 am 
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Hi Dan,

Thanks very much. This is essentially what I thought you would say. I am well familiar with fresnel lenses and can see now why those ambers will not work.

I will bite the bullet and get the red/tails for spares, and wait for your tests to see what else might work (top and tails) in the near future.

Many thanks again,

Lou

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 Post subject: What about backup lamps?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:30 pm 
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Slight change of topic.........

How about backup lamps?

Years ago Dan had a recommendation for a brighter incandescent backup bulb.

Any leds out there that are aimed correctly?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:19 pm 
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I did buy some of those - also Phillips. Not sure if still available. I think if you search 1056 (?) LED replacement...

Lou

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:53 pm 
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FYI: The bulb Dan recommended years ago was an 796


And why are most of the white LEDs 6000K ?

I like the warmer colors of 2700K - 3000K


And just for fun, where's the selective yellow?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:17 pm 
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The best reversing lamp upgrade is same as always, a № 796 35w halogen (not the 50w lensmelter/wire-fryer types). Ping me if you want some.

If Tungsram comes through with their LED bulbs, which early indications are suggesting, it's possible their 1156 LED will work nicely in all reversing lamps, even with fresnel lenses. And their white range includes both 4000K and 6000K options (freakin' finally someone's putting out something other than blue-white!).

I've got a good representative batch of lamps on the way to me for testing with the new bulbs. Bunch of different fresnel types, new and old, and some reflector-bowl/spreader-lens types as well. Stay tuned and hope your car has amber front turn signal lenses, because the Tungsram range doesn't have any amber bulbs in it yet (I'm squawking about it at 'em).

Selective yellow is a fog lamp colour, see here. There exist selective yellow LED chips, but aside from one vendor selling "LED bulbs" for headlamps and fog lamps (steer clear of these no matter whose name is on them or what claims are made), they're generally not much used.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:17 am 
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Thanks for all that info (in the linked articles too) Dan.

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:29 pm 
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More Dan questions.....

What temp (K?) white light approximates selective yellow?

What temp white light is best for the human eye?
(There's seeing the light for oncoming drivers, and what light reflects back to you)

And is it rods or cones that are in play? (they have different frequency response)


thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:21 pm 
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emsvitil wrote:
What temp (K?) white light approximates selective yellow?


None, why do you ask? Selective Yellow is not on the blackbody curve, so there is no CCT (correlated colour temperature) applicable to it. There are vendors calling selective yellow bulbs/lights "3000K", which is not at all true or correct.

Quote:
What temp white light is best for the human eye?


This is a bit of a "What's the best kind of wrench?" question. Human vision is very complex and there are very few pat answers. There's some suggestive evidence that higher colour temperatures help with peripheral vision, there's good evidence that for any given intensity bluer-white light is more glaring than yellower-white light, without any benefit in ability to see. It's known that the human visual system has a hard time handling blue light (more detail at the Selective Yellow article I linked to). There's very strong evidence that bluer and bluer car lights make marketing types happier and happier, and a tall pile of evidence that this effect creates another tall pile of bogus, pseudoscientific claimed "benefits" to higher colour temperature/bluer (baselessly called "whiter") light.

Really, the colour of light is not high on the list of important factors. Far more crucial to how well you can see at night is how much light you have in the relevant directions (that is, it's much more important that you have a lot of light in a good distribution pattern…much less important what variety of white or yellow that light is).

Quote:
(There's seeing the light for oncoming drivers, and what light reflects back to you)


For glare, less blue is better.

Quote:
And is it rods or cones that are in play?


It's both. Driving at night involves neither photopic (daytime/bright out) nor scotopic (nighttime/dark-adapted) vision; it involves an in-between mode called mesopic vision.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:17 pm 
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SlantSixDan wrote:
emsvitil wrote:
What temp (K?) white light approximates selective yellow?


None, why do you ask? Selective Yellow is not on the blackbody curve, so there is no CCT (correlated colour temperature) applicable to it. There are vendors calling selective yellow bulbs/lights "3000K", which is not at all true or correct.



Selective yellow is avoiding the blue.

So I was thinking what white temp would sort of work the same.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:04 pm 
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OK, I can follow your thinking there, but I can't quite make the next jump: what does it practically matter? In most cases we don't get to select the color temperature of our headlamps.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:29 pm 
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Another Dan question.

What wavelength(s) range of red led can be used for brake lights? Some people have more problems with longer wavelengths than others.....

and

What wavelength(s) range can be used for amber lights? (not too yellow and not too red)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:28 pm 
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In the relevant regs the colours aren't defined in terms of wavelength, but rather in terms of coordinates in the CIE 1931 colourspace. Amber is officially called "yellow", which is not the same as "selective yellow" ("yellow" is amber, and "selective yellow" is much less orange-y; it's primarily used in fog lamps as described here).

Red boundaries:
y = 0.335 (yellow boundary)
y = 0.980 – x (purple boundary)

With intersection points:
x = 0.645, y = 0.335
x = 0.665, y = 0.335
x = 0.735, y = 0.265
x = 0.721, y = 0.259

Yellow boundaries
y = 0.390 (red boundary)
y = 0.790 – 0.670x (white boundary)
y = x – 0.120 (green boundary)

With intersection points:
x = 0.545, y = 0.425
x = 0.560, y = 0.440
x = 0.609, y = 0.390
x = 0.597, y = 0.390

There are some wavelength callouts in the attached CIE 1931 colourspace diagram, which has the various automotive colour boxes drawn in (including red and yellow according to the definitions above).

Are you asking because you have in mind to pick out some LEDs and try building some lamps from scratch? If so, that's a big and difficult job to do right; see here.

Or are you asking because you notice there's a large range of reds and ambers on the road and you're curious where the fence is? You're right, the yellow ranges from very orange to not-very-orange, and the red ranges from a deep cherry red to a red-orange to almost a red-pink. I don't know if some of these are markedly worse than others for people with red-green colourblindness. I would guess a red that contains no yellow could make safety problems that way, but a lot of automakers over the last 15 years or so have gone to the so-called "super red" LEDs for tail and/or brake lights (by comparison, the normal-red LEDs look almost orange), and I haven't heard a peep about colourblind people crashing into such cars. Here is an old blog post that approaches this topic.


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Colourspace.jpg
Colourspace.jpg [ 249.28 KiB | Viewed 402 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:10 pm 
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SlantSixDan wrote:

Or are you asking because you notice there's a large range of reds and ambers on the road and you're curious where the fence is? You're right, the yellow ranges from very orange to not-very-orange, and the red ranges from a deep cherry red to a red-orange to almost a red-pink. I don't know if some of these are markedly worse than others for people with red-green colourblindness. I would guess a red that contains no yellow could make safety problems that way, but a lot of automakers over the last 15 years or so have gone to the so-called "super red" LEDs for tail and/or brake lights (by comparison, the normal-red LEDs look almost orange), and I haven't heard a peep about colourblind people crashing into such cars. Here is an old blog post that approaches this topic.



I was behind a car today where the turn leds (under clear plastic) were definitely yellow. Not the usual amber colored plastic or dipped amber bulb color.



thanks

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