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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:58 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Posts: 28
Car Model: 1967 VC Valiant
Hi there

I have just installed a new mini-hi-torque starter to replace my failing original Bosch type on my 67 VC Valiant (auto). It's a nine-tooth starter and I counted 148 teeth on the ring gear (unless I miss counted).

I bolted it up hard to the bell-housing, it sits and looks flush and it turns the engine over fine - if I got the ring gear number wrong I expect it would not engage at all, but as soon as the engine fires it begins to screech. I expect that is caused by the starter not disengaging from the ring gear properly. I pulled it out and there does not seem to be any damage done to the teeth or to the ring gear. I tried putting it in again, tried again, same problem.

I put the old starter back in for the time being, and there is no problem.

Has anyone else had this issue with these new hi-torque starters? Am I looking at a faulty starter or is it likely another issue? I bench tested the starter and it looks fine from that point of view.

I was told by the retailer of these starters that they should bolt directly to the bell housing without a shim. There was no shim on the old starter. Is a shim likely to fix this?

Thanks
Mark.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:27 pm
Posts: 9760
Location: Salem, OR
Car Model:
Quote:
Has anyone else had this issue with these new hi-torque starters? Am I looking at a faulty starter or is it likely another issue?



This doesn't happen with our 10 tooth OEM Denso Starters here, they are a bolt in (but these also are standard for almost all the mopar V-8's).

If these are put together by an aftermarket manufacturer, you may have some teething issues (no pun intended)... It's not 100% the tooth
count that makes the upgrade... the tooth pitch and starter tooth to flywheel ring gear clearance is also important.

Having done this with an aftermarket custom built starter, I usually pulled out my spare flywheels and looked at how the starter teeth fit
or meshed with the teeth of the flywheel ring gear...the starter teeth can be a bit fatter and get wedged in the narrower ring gear....
When I installed that aftermarket starter, I bolted it into the bellhousing without the transmission installed and engaged the solenoid to extend
the starting gear with out it rolling the engine over, I then tried to fit a large paperclip or wire feeler gauge between the starter tooth and flywheel
ring gear. If you can't easily fit that feeler between the teeth, it won't disengage when the engine starts... there are a couple of other solutions
if the pitch is correct, but just tight... you can polish the starter gear teeth to make the room...the other option is to wallow out the holes in the
starter mounting ears and shimming the holes so the starter gear center line can be offset just enough that the teeth engage, but have the clearance
to retract after the engine starts....


Good Luck on the Hot Rod mod.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:08 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Posts: 28
Car Model: 1967 VC Valiant
DusterIdiot wrote:
Quote:
Has anyone else had this issue with these new hi-torque starters? Am I looking at a faulty starter or is it likely another issue?



This doesn't happen with our 10 tooth OEM Denso Starters here, they are a bolt in (but these also are standard for almost all the mopar V-8's).

If these are put together by an aftermarket manufacturer, you may have some teething issues (no pun intended)... It's not 100% the tooth
count that makes the upgrade... the tooth pitch and starter tooth to flywheel ring gear clearance is also important.

Having done this with an aftermarket custom built starter, I usually pulled out my spare flywheels and looked at how the starter teeth fit
or meshed with the teeth of the flywheel ring gear...the starter teeth can be a bit fatter and get wedged in the narrower ring gear....
When I installed that aftermarket starter, I bolted it into the bellhousing without the transmission installed and engaged the solenoid to extend
the starting gear with out it rolling the engine over, I then tried to fit a large paperclip or wire feeler gauge between the starter tooth and flywheel
ring gear. If you can't easily fit that feeler between the teeth, it won't disengage when the engine starts... there are a couple of other solutions
if the pitch is correct, but just tight... you can polish the starter gear teeth to make the room...the other option is to wallow out the holes in the
starter mounting ears and shimming the holes so the starter gear center line can be offset just enough that the teeth engage, but have the clearance
to retract after the engine starts....


Good Luck on the Hot Rod mod.


Thanks for this.

Will a 9 tooth starter engage with a 130 tooth or 122 tooth ring gear? My intuition says no.

If a 9 tooth will will mate up when a 10 tooth is required, to rule that out as an issue, I can again pull the spark plugs out and count the teeth on the ring gear again to make sure that I counted to 148 teeth correctly, but that is a PITA (I don't have a hoist). Also these starters are marketed as "direct bolt on" with no modification required.

Cheers
Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:27 pm
Posts: 9760
Location: Salem, OR
Car Model:
https://www.powermastermotorsports.com/097__Mastertorque_Chevy_starter.pdf

Disregard the installation instructions are for the other brand vehicles, the section on page 2 for pinion engagement and clearance
is pretty typical when installing something that you aren't sure about, or a junkyard work around.

Quote:
Will a 9 tooth starter engage with a 130 tooth or 122 tooth ring gear? My intuition says no.


On American flywheels 130 tooth is the small block fly wheel and the 122 is the slant flywheel and both take the
10 tooth gear reduction starter... on our side the slant 172 tooth and 143 tooth flywheels that take the direct drive
9 tooth starter...although I was able to use a mopar V-8 denso mini starter with the 143 tooth flywheel if you swap the
10 Tooth pinion gear for an 11 tooth gear from a 1990's Chrysler Mini Van with the V-6.

The American 9 tooth DD starter will fit the bellhousing for the 10 tooth reduction gear starter, but the 9 tooth gear
is slightly smaller and doesn't engage the 122 tooth ring gear correctly.

Does the company that made your aftermarket starter have a troubleshooting guide or a knowledge base on their
product that may help?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:39 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Posts: 28
Car Model: 1967 VC Valiant
DusterIdiot wrote:
https://www.powermastermotorsports.com/097__Mastertorque_Chevy_starter.pdf

Disregard the installation instructions are for the other brand vehicles, the section on page 2 for pinion engagement and clearance
is pretty typical when installing something that you aren't sure about, or a junkyard work around.

Quote:
Will a 9 tooth starter engage with a 130 tooth or 122 tooth ring gear? My intuition says no.


On American flywheels 130 tooth is the small block fly wheel and the 122 is the slant flywheel and both take the
10 tooth gear reduction starter... on our side the slant 172 tooth and 143 tooth flywheels that take the direct drive
9 tooth starter...although I was able to use a mopar V-8 denso mini starter with the 143 tooth flywheel if you swap the
10 Tooth pinion gear for an 11 tooth gear from a 1990's Chrysler Mini Van with the V-6.

The American 9 tooth DD starter will fit the bellhousing for the 10 tooth reduction gear starter, but the 9 tooth gear
is slightly smaller and doesn't engage the 122 tooth ring gear correctly.

Does the company that made your aftermarket starter have a troubleshooting guide or a knowledge base on their
product that may help?


Hi there

The Starter doesn't have any markings on it that identify who made it but I understand that they are manufactured in the USA. The one I have is brand new.

Here is a short video of my problem https://photos.app.goo.gl/hLJ67PKDp5wmg6vg6 and also it appears that the sprag spring is broken, although bench testing it it pops in and out no trouble.

There are definately 148 teeth on the ring gear - I recounted them.

The last idea is a couple of washers on each side.

Mark.


Last edited by Mark Robertson on Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:41 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Posts: 28
Car Model: 1967 VC Valiant
Ok, so I fixed the problem by putting three 5/8ths washers between the starter and the bell housing, leaving about a 5mm gap. I expect the broken sprag spring caused this issue and I will get a replacement starter - if the same issue prevails with the replacement, I'll get a shim otherwise there will be a 5mm gap for crap to get into the bell housing.

I note that these starters are supposed to bolt up hard against the bell housing without any shim.

Thanks for your help all - I hope this exercise helps a few others.

Mark.


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