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 Post subject: Planning EFI Turbo Sl6
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:27 pm 
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I'm considering a sl6 build using a Garret T3 from a 2.3L Mustang and the GM Batch-fire EFI system. But i have some questions that i cant really answer without testing it out myself.

Which displacement is ideal for the best power?

Should the injectors be mounted in a TBI style upon a Hyperpack reproduction manifold, or individually along the runners of a super-six manifold?

Would a simple cube style custom exhaust manifold for the turbo suffice as a low-budget unit for this build?

Should i invest in a custom billet forged crankshaft with custom forged rods/pistons to achieve strength and a better bore/stroke ratio?

Any articles that anyone feels that I should know about please let me know. I already have a good understanding of turbo charging and forced induction engines, but not much real slant six experience, just alot of reading.

Any suggestions appreciated


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:42 pm 
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carpdar wrote:
Should i invest in a custom billet forged crankshaft with custom forged rods/pistons to achieve strength and a better bore/stroke ratio?


My .02 for this question. No need for a custom crank. Prep a forged stock unit and you are good to go. K1 Technologies is making aftermarket rods. I had Wiesco (who works with K1) make a custom set of pistons for a turbo application. They should yield a 8.1:1 CR. Search for briannutter (wiesco employee/ piston designer) and you will find the thread and a pic of my piston.

I would think the 225 would be the better candidate but that's just me.

I'll leave the other questions to the FI guys.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:59 pm 
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Budget build huh? Well custom rods/pistons/crank will blow that out of the water before anything else. If you really want to do all what your talking about let me share with you some ideas because I have fairly well laid out a boosted build and read all the books you could think of. I just purchased an Eaton M90 last week (learned it produces just as well as the bigger mustang blower, interesting) and have tweaked my build accordingly.
First off a 2.3L Garret and a GM batchfire is a waste of money for this. If your serious you will need to get a book to read some compressor maps and a few things. The book I read taught me with estimated VE and overall goal you will need X turbo. To make it easier a 350hp build should use a Garrett GT35R or a t-60. A 300-350 build could probably get away with a T25 or equivalent of. These a t25 which someone I talked to recently can be easily obtained and is very reasonable. Next a set EFI is a waste of time, any good build needs to be tunable, without it your stuck and you've wasted a lot of potential. I talked to a lot of people about my EFI this weekend and one thing is you have to tune it, there is no easy way just like there is no bolt on carb. Once you have it though, you love it, getting there is another issue. However, having to do it over, unless you have a super strong background in the slant and this is your first extreme build, why not go blowthrough? The biggest pain in EFI isn't the injector set-up it's the fuel line, fuel tank, and pump issue. I spent an afternoon getting my TBI on, and a couple weeks with the rest.
For a turbo build, it's shown on paper that a 170 that can rev to 7000rpm will produce more power than a 225 at 6000rpm at the same boost. However, that is on paper. I would simply use whatever I can get my hands on and whatever I already have. On the same note, the torque of the 225 will help in buliding the boost.
A TBI will not lose as much power or efficency as is the rumor. Everyone is intitled to there opinions on this and this is mine. I would consider a 350 TBI like I have set-up on mine on a Super Six manifold. However, it depends on what YOU want and your money level at this point, so save it for later after some stuff you need to spend the money on. A log style exhaust will be fine and a J-style tube on a stock exhaust will be fine also. Headers will be the ultimate way to go but for the 12 or so lbs you go I would consider moving on with something simpler.
One area I would not skimp on is strong pistons and ARP everything. Balance the bottom end and look at either forged pistons or at least somehow sneaking in hypereuretics. The rotating assembly is where I would start, next cam, last head (seems backwards huh?). Head I would do some gasket matching and guides, forget bigger valves. Cam needs to be custom and stronder springs.
Good luck, I've been planning my build for a while so if your serious keep in touch and keep me updated. Many guys have talked about doing this and lost touch which meant they gave up. So start with where you need to spend the money and skimp where you can get away with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:15 pm 
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Do you have a block in at Dunbars?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:34 pm 
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So runvs_826, basically your saying this is something i should do "all or nothing"? If so, your probably right and this is something i've been wanting to do since its my first car and has sentimental value.

As for EFI, i've been looking into the megasquirt 2 v.3 as a long term tunable solution since i probably will keeping messing with different combinations of induction/cam. I'm still undecided as to whether Multi-port injection is worth the trouble over TBI.

For the turbo manifold i was thinking of getting the appropriate turbo flange welded to a good factory manifold.

The turbocharger I would like to use would be of garret design probably using a garret t3 housing with t4 impeller (unless thats to high of an rpm orientation). I've always been skeptical/uneducated to the RPM capabilities of the slant (depending on displacement) using ARP main bolts/shot peened rods etc. since I havn't seen much data or proven limits of bottom end assemblies on different slant 6 setups.

As far as method of induction i was pretty much decided on a intercooled blow-through system, possibly utilizing c02 on the intercooler to safely use a higher compression ratio.

I've found a potential sponsorship, and am on the lookout for more since this car could be displayed at SEMA with my father's NOS mopar business.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:48 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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sandy in BC wrote:
Do you have a block in at Dunbars?


Nope, everything is still at the drawingboards. I have to finish up my Fiero and sell it for some money before i can really get into this, which should be a couple weeks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Um.... no I don't think you need to go all in, however, turbos and EFI is expensive and time consuming so don't bet $1500 on a pair of 4's. I just want to give someone the info I've collected and see them walk a parrell path, to help both parties if possible.
A lot of these builds though depend on how much and where you want to spend. I have to follow a strict budget, but that doesn't mean I won't spend a big portion on pistons and ARP rod bolts. However, I would recondition my stock rods for $100 over springing for the new H-beam guys. I mean there is 12sec cars without billet rods. One thing is I'm working on a roller cam blank and will try to get that project finished before the end of the summer and make a dozen or so.
The megasquirt is a great program for the money and uses. I would and plan on buying another one for our other hot rod project. It is difficult, but if you want to go EFI this is the way to go. When you modify your tank clean it several times and you should be good to go. You can run an external pump if your not worried about the noise.
Welding a plate than having some tubing work somewhere followed by another plate that matches the turbo should work fine. I would consider getting a Buick Grand National turbo for this. I think you could break into the 300 pony range and not fuss to much over compressor map stuff.
An intercooled turbo will work fine with 9:1 compression if your tuning is on the dime. I would consider a water injection system over spraying anything on the intercooler, it's just not that efficent for the costs. I fyou rig the tank and pump the megasquirt can control it.
The slant bottom end will spin fairly well if prepped right. When I started on 302 I would have laughed if you told me a 4.125 stroke 6 banger would turn 6000rpms. However with a balanced bottom end or possible a long rod combo this is very possible. Speaking of which that is somewhere I would spend some money is the long rod combo.
All in all keep the ideas coming, but your on a good start and I think you understand what this project involves. You don't need to have the best everything, but you can't do this on a budget if you don't spend the money where it needs to be spent and save where possible.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:29 pm 
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I looked into the Turbo Regal as a potential donor car for the turbo and for EFI. The displacement is pretty close for the two and it would be a budget alternative to a custom turbo setup.

Is there a way to setup water-injection to stabilize the combustion temperature automatically?

The exhaust down-pipe would just be a 3" straight pipe connecting to a 3" exhaust pipe off to the driver's side i figure.

As for pounds of boost, i'm not really sure to what the stock pistons can handle with prepped rods on a balanced forged crank. This is probably my biggest uncertainty of this build. I guess money could be well spent on custom rods in order to run some mad boost.

As far as the ignition system goes i was thinking a Accel 35361 HEI conversion on a Mopar electronic distributor would work out with a 50,000 volt coil. I want to try and utilize the HEI unit's knock sensor with Megasquirt if i end up using it.

Last concern: Would it be worth using "shorty" 2 into 1 headers to feed the turbocharger for better flow or is this pointless with enough boost?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:51 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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With the water injection the tips are a pain, so you'll have to spend some money for the good ones. I would skip this unless you plan on some major boost ie 15-20lbs. The intercooler will be a much better and easier investment. But yes the water injection should be automatic like the fuel injection just based on set parameters and sensors.
Turbo Regal should be a great set-up. I don't know what you meant by a custom turbo system exactly but I'm sure there is plenty of parts you can utilize. The shorty headers would be a waste... the two options would be custom headers for the turbo, or the idea metioned above. I've noticed that my plans started out large and got more useful as I thought about price vs reality.
As we talked about above the huge money shouldn't be spent on rods those are more than strong enough for this build. However pistons will need to be the pricy stronger unit. The stock pistons can probably handle 8lbs, hypers 12-15, forged you never have to worry about. So you can think it out from there, but I would plan on running 12lbs it will give you plenty. Also, if you plan on this it won't be difficult to turn it up to 15lbs which essentially is doubling your engine's size or shoving twice as much air as it could possibly swallow NA.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:19 am 
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I use a 87GN turbo with 21psi of boost and stock engine. It will live but the tune has to be right ( I did have some tuning accidents early on but nothing was hurt). I'm using a blow thru carb and methanol injection from devils own (pressure sensitive switch, boost activated at 5psi). I also have a additional washer bottle and squirters aimed at the intercooler (manual button) for additional cooling. AFR at wot is 11.1:1... a little rich but safe.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:32 am 
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630HP and 720 ft-lbs has been made on a reworked stock block, crank, and rods with forged pistons.

I would go with GN turbo. Also very worthwhile to have a dry manifold system (multi-point EFI).

I have MS 2.2 on my two Darts and am planning turbo. Will upgrade to MSII ign control too.

Lou

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:55 am 
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carpdar wrote:
I'm considering a sl6 build using a Garret T3 from a 2.3L Mustang and the GM Batch-fire EFI system. But i have some questions that i cant really answer without testing it out myself.


The 2.3 Turbo is way too small if you want decent power levels. The Regal is a much better donor.

Quote:
Which displacement is ideal for the best power?


I'd go with a 225.

Quote:
Should the injectors be mounted in a TBI style upon a Hyperpack reproduction manifold, or individually along the runners of a super-six manifold?


We're working on some TBI vs port injection fuel distribution tests, but not on a slant six (my own turbo / EFI slant six is port injected). Given the slant six's manifold design I suspect port injection will get you better fuel distribution.

Quote:
Would a simple cube style custom exhaust manifold for the turbo suffice as a low-budget unit for this build? ...
For the turbo manifold i was thinking of getting the appropriate turbo flange welded to a good factory manifold.


I tried a cut and welded manifold and it didn't hold up all that well. Now I'm trying to fab up a manifold to turbo adapter pipe setup.

Quote:
Should i invest in a custom billet forged crankshaft with custom forged rods/pistons to achieve strength and a better bore/stroke ratio?


Not exactly low budget, and the only possible weak link with stock parts is the pistons.

Quote:
Is there a way to setup water-injection to stabilize the combustion temperature automatically?


There's a lot of guys running Aquamist or Devil's Own kits, but these do not do some sort of feedback where they monitor combustion chamber temperatures. Just how much power are you looking to make?

Quote:
As far as the ignition system goes i was thinking a Accel 35361 HEI conversion on a Mopar electronic distributor would work out with a 50,000 volt coil. I want to try and utilize the HEI unit's knock sensor with Megasquirt if i end up using it.


HEI can work on low boost setups, but you may need something with a bit more kick. I plan to test this once I get my current turbo build back up and running.

Quote:
Last concern: Would it be worth using "shorty" 2 into 1 headers to feed the turbocharger for better flow or is this pointless with enough boost?


Sounds like a good idea to me. Restrictions aren't good whether turbo or naturally aspirated.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:18 am 
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Does a GN turbo have a piggyback mechanical blow off valve? If so can it be blocked so an electronically controlled unit be utilized? I'm also unsure as to what would perform better: a blow-through TBI setup on a super 6 intake (wet manifold), or a multiport system with a custom welded manifold (dry manifold).

As far as options for cylinder heads goes i figure i could just replicate the re manufactured Clifford head using mopar performance oversize valves and titanium retainers. I would machine the head .80 and the block .10, for cr of around 9:1 depending on the cam.

I've been reading about the MS v2.2 and i see adapters for HEI compatibility. Does this mean the HEI would be an simple effective ignition system to install?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:24 pm 
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You might want to pick up a book about turbos and get a feeling for how some of the devices work. There's a couple out there worth reading:

- Turbochargers by Hugh MacInness - an older book and somewhat dated, but the only book I've seen to cover carbed turbos
- Maximum Boost by Corky Bell - a bit opinionated, but we've got one of Corky's turbo systems here at work and he sure knows how to build them
- Street Turbocharging - can't remember the author, but it's in some ways a major update of Hugh's book. All the carb stuff got taken out though.

carpdar wrote:
Does a GN turbo have a piggyback mechanical blow off valve? If so can it be blocked so an electronically controlled unit be utilized?


Blow off valves are not built into turbos and always mechanical. I believe the GN turbo does have a wastegate built in however. You can pair it with whatever controller you like.

Quote:
I'm also unsure as to what would perform better: a blow-through TBI setup on a super 6 intake (wet manifold), or a multiport system with a custom welded manifold (dry manifold).


A dry manifold.

Quote:
As far as options for cylinder heads goes i figure i could just replicate the re manufactured Clifford head using mopar performance oversize valves and titanium retainers. I would machine the head .80 and the block .10, for cr of around 9:1 depending on the cam.


I'm not sure you would need more compression for a pump gas motor. There's a guy on eBay called enginebldr who sells good valves. Clifford's cylinder head is not all that special.

Quote:
I've been reading about the MS v2.2 and i see adapters for HEI compatibility. Does this mean the HEI would be an simple effective ignition system to install?


This is probably the oldest method of getting computerized ignition control with a Megasquirt on a Mopar - combine a Lean Burn distributor, a 7 or 8 pin HEI module, and a Megasquirt. There's other ways too now. I wrote an article on the DIYAutoTune.com site detailing the more common options.

My Dart is going crank triggered now, just because I can.

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'66 Dart - turbocharged 225

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