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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:52 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
I did successfully get the valve out. As i learned on several other message forums, besides being careful the secret is to pry the valve and grommet out of the tank as a single unit. When i did so and inspected it, i saw this:

Image

Apologies for the blurry picture. Notice anything missing, like, oh say, the rollover valve mechanism? I haven’t read the policies of turbododge.com, so rather than posting a direct link to their picture, i’ll ask you to please go to this thread and look at the second picture of the first post, and compare it to mine.

It took me a loooonnnng time to work this out. Hopefully the details i’m about to post will help others who need this valve for their Chrysler/Jeep/etc. products. The good news is a lot of vehicles used this valve across the lines. Just when i thought it was going to be impossible to find a new replacement, Tony in the parts department of Alhambra (California) Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/etc. had the magic good-in-2015 part number: 52127666. It’s a drop-in fit for the original 4002252, for which i paid $31 + tax—cheaper than the aftermarket part which looked like it wouldn’t fit at my local real auto parts store. Let’s look at the numbers:

    4002149 grommet: ID: 28 mm/1.1", groove diameter: 35 mm/1 3/8", thickness: approx. 3.3 mm/.13"
    4002252 valve grommet mounting surface: 28.9 mm/1.14" diameter, 10.1 mm/.40" high
    Barb: 5.2 mm/.20" diameter
    51217666 valve grommet mounting surface: 28.9 mm/1.14" diameter, 10.8 mm/.42" high
    Barb: 5.0 mm/.19" diameter
    36 gal. tank grommet hole diameter: 35.4 mm/1.39"


Comparison pictures:
Image
Image

My original 4002149 grommet was in excellent condition, so i re-used it. I regret (for the benefit of others) that i did not inquire into a current part number for the mating grommet. For me, this goes to show that sometimes a good dealer parts person can be a critical resource.

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:59 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
azray wrote:
With the fill tube at the bottom of the tank ,once the fuel rises above the pipe level, all the air in the tank must exit only through the vent . The vent must not be large enough to allow the full volume of nozzle flow to enter the tank, So the fuel is backing up in the fill pipe.


That’s what has always seemed to be the case, in the years (since 1989) i’ve owned the vehicle. I can’t be certain that the fuel is backing up the fill pipe, but something is going wrong in there and at least a few times (mostly years ago) i have heard fuel filling the fill pipe. Yet this last time, the tank was low enough that the fuel was below the fill pipe and the pump still kept clicking off right away.

Quote:
I think it needs a larger vent, or slower fill flow.


Not sure how either of those can happen. I’ve been using the slowest possible fill rate for many years now—below the flow rate at the lowest/slowest preset on the nozzle. Some stations have more or less eliminated slower flow (Costco seems to be one of these) to get people through faster. At stations like these, the nozzle is nearly binary: full on, or off. I am limited in my options for chasing around to gas stations with slow enough flow, fewer and fewer of them every year.

I don’t see how i can modify the vent sizing legally on a California van registered and used (and having to pass emissions tests) in California. I think all i can do is fine-tune everything to ensure it is working at peak design performance. Legalities aside, unless i vent to atmosphere, it would take a lot of bodywork and pipe bending and welding to increase the vent size from the tank back to the top of the fill pipe (and i don’t know how the Stage II vapor recovery pumps will react to that).


********************
As far as i can tell and azray has posted above, during a refueling operation, the only meaningful venting is:
    1) Through the fill pipe when the fuel level is very low.
    2) Through the 1/2" diameter vent line from the top of the tank to near the top of the fill pipe.


I happened to be using this vent line (the nipple at the sender unit) as the air input for my rollover/vent valve/line testing. The moment i broke the air hose seal, the tank vented down in just a few seconds (maybe 3, but i didn’t count). There is no restriction in this line, at least where it exits the tank through its nipple on the sender. There is no restriction all the way to the top of the filler neck, per earlier testing with the pieces apart, out of the vehicle (see my posts above, this thread).

The problem as i see it is that the Chrysler engineers appear to have designed this vent run to be horizontal—level horizontal. This makes little sense to me, given bulletin no. 14-06A-78 August 9 1978 which matv91 kindly described. I would have thought that they’d design in a gradual or not-so-gradual slope from the fill pipe fitting to the tank nipple, so there would be no possibility of liquid fuel pooling up and blocking the vent. But they didn’t. As best i can tell from what matv91 wrote, my 1981 van came from the factory with the mod: it is mostly hard line for this vent line, with short runs of 1/2" hose where necessary.

So why am i having so much trouble filling the tank? I still don’t have a clear answer, but there is this:

Image

Measuring pipe*/hose height of this vent line to any common reference i have found very difficult. The least worst option seems to be measuring from the top of the pipes to the top of the tank (for the pipe attached to the top of the tank) or to the underside of the body (which appears to be a flat plane at the points where it matters) for the hard line exiting the filler pipe and the pass-through metal protective tubing.

* It’s metal tubing or line, but pipe is shorter to type, so i’m going with it.

What we see here is how things were in recent years. Note that the slope is all good until one goes around the 90° bend on the tank to the nipple, where there is a 5 mm rise. With tubing around 11 mm ID, this shouldn’t be enough to create a full liquid trap, but it is a low spot.

I spent a long time with the tank on the ground, getting it level, then measuring the level/out of level of this tubing. As the numbers would indicate, there was a nice downhill slope from the left side (where the hose from the top of the fill pipe connects) to the corner, then uphill to the vent nipple on the sender.

Years and years ago when i got the van, there was some sort of rag material or something stuck under this pipe. I didn’t understand why and took it out. That may have been bad. I have shimmed up the vent pipe where it snaps into the tank (two points), so that now when the tank is level, the line is level from the sender nipple to the 90° bend, then has a very slight up slope over to where the pipe ends (hose attachment to fill neck vent pipe). Here are the numbers for that:

Image

There’s still a mismatch, now along the hose run as it mates the end of the tank pipe at 18 mm to the top and the end of the fill pipe vent at 23 mm to the top.

I really don’t know what else i can do here. I’m also concerned because there really ought not to be any liquid fuel getting into this vent line in the first place. The vent line attaches to the fill pipe just behind the metal plate with the filler nozzle restrictor and flap. My understanding is that those pieces and where the line attaches should prevent, or at least minimize liquid fuel from getting into that vent line. As long as i’m not overfilling/topping off, i don’t see how/why this vent line would get fuel in it.

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:05 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:08 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
I do not have a warm fuzzy that a cause has been found and resolved. I feel like i’m flailing, and running out of options. Unless someone has a breakthrough idea/something i have not considered/looked into, i will need to put everything back together and hope i can get gas in the tank. I currently see two ways of looking at things:

    1) Chrysler engineers knew what they were doing.
    Upshot: there’s something wrong with the vehicle that has been missed, or things have changed external to the vehicle such that it can no longer function as designed (but what?).

    2) Chrysler engineers were stupid/about to retire/angry at management/overridden by someone/whatever and the fuel filling system never truly did work well.
    Upshot: i’m screwed. This is my one and only motor vehicle, and i can’t afford to change that (sob story redacted). I still don’t have a good, trusted mechanic i can take it to, and i can’t imagine what they could do that hasn’t already been done by me, unless they re-engineer the fill neck vent line or something.


Not covered in this series of posts: workarounds other vehicle owners who have premature shutoff problems use. Stuff like turning the nozzle to 4-5 o’ clock or 7-8 o’ clock or upside down rather than letting it hang straight down, pulling it out an inch, and more. I’ve used most of those in the past: sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn’t. All i want to do is fill the tank and drive the dang van like a normal person.

As far as i’m concerned, as of this moment, nothing has been solved. I sure hope someone has some good ideas/may be seeing something i’m missing.

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Turbo EFI

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:19 pm
Posts: 1327
Car Model:
Looking at vans in the yard today. The older vans at the top of filler tube have one vent hole about 1/2 inch. The newer vans have a different style vent opening,much bigger. Not a simple hole .How about a picture of your filler tube.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 12869
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
I think I have told you this before, but my brother has a1983 Dodge shorty van with slant six and he has absolutely no problems filling the 30+ gallon plastic tank.

I suspect something has been stuff in your filler tube or the anti-siphons valve has possibly failed and is clogging the fill pipe. Something like that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:17 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
matv91 wrote:
Looking at vans in the yard today. The older vans at the top of filler tube have one vent hole about 1/2 inch. The newer vans have a different style vent opening,much bigger. Not a simple hole .How about a picture of your filler tube.


Not sure what part you wanted to see, so…
Image
Image
Image

Thanks for looking into this—appreciated!

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:25 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Reed wrote:
I think I have told you this before, but my brother has a1983 Dodge shorty van with slant six and he has absolutely no problems filling the 30+ gallon plastic tank.


Yes you did, which is what has been giving me hope that there’s something wrong with my specific vehicle rather than a design problem. Unless there was a significant change between ’81 and ’83.

Quote:
I suspect something has been stuff in your filler tube or the anti-siphons valve has possibly failed and is clogging the fill pipe. Something like that.


All of that is logical, but i see no signs of it. I’ve had the filler pipe assembly out a couple of times now. Earlier in this thread, i mentioned being able to flow as much water from a garden hose through it as i wanted, any direction.

There is definitely nothing lodged in the filler tube, nor the vent line. I’ve run water, a plumbing snake, and i think wire through it, as well as looked every which way i can look. I can flow as much water as the hose puts out, no restriction. I find no evidence of any sort of anti-siphon valve on mine, or any other valve on the fill pipe: just that little flap where the gas nozzle goes in.

If anyone has other tests, suggestions, now is the time, while the tank is dry and things are still a bit apart.

Thanks!

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Turbo EFI

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:19 pm
Posts: 1327
Car Model:
Third picture is the older vans.The one i looked at had just one, hole the left one.Yours has a second hole.The newer van had a large sort of a half moon shape at the top of the neck.Above were the holes are on your tube.Every thing else looked the same.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:08 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
matv91 wrote:
Third picture is the older vans.The one i looked at had just one, hole the left one.Yours has a second hole.The newer van had a large sort of a half moon shape at the top of the neck.Above were the holes are on your tube.Every thing else looked the same.


Hmmm… sounds like Chrysler fine-tuned the venting over the years. Hopefully, when he has a chance, Reed can fill us in on what his brother’s known-working van has (esp. since it can be seen by merely taking the gas cap off—no crawling around on the ground!). Maybe even a picture!

Hopeful,

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:28 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 12869
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
I will ask him to send me a picture of the fuel fill pipe mouth.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:56 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 12869
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
My brother's fuel fill pipe mouth looks like the bottom picture you posted with the two vent holes above the main fill pipe opening.

HOWEVER! I have been giving you bad information. My brother told me he also has trouble filling his tank up all the way. The pump keep shutting off and he has to play with the angle of the pump nozzle to get it to work. Sound familiar?

What I can tell you is that I live in Tacoma, WA and he lives in Seattle, WA. Whenever I filled his van or the 83 Doge van I used to own, I never had a problem filling up with gas. He tells me he has problems when he fills it with gas. I have noticed that as of a few years ago, at least, I could still find gas stations around Tacoma that lacked ANY vapor recovery system on the nozzles, although most now have some kind of nozzle vapor recovery system now.

I think what you are experiencing is redesigned vapor recovery nozzles not playing nice with older fill pipes and fill pipe angles designed for non-vapor recovery systems. I think you have checked every part of your system, and it all sounds to be fine. I think you will just have to live with the pain of willing an older car using modern pumps. Or carry a couple big gas cans, fill those, then use them to fill your van.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:21 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Passssssssadena, California
Car Model: 1981 B-150 original California short passenger Van
Reed wrote:
My brother's fuel fill pipe mouth looks like the bottom picture you posted with the two vent holes above the main fill pipe opening.

HOWEVER! I have been giving you bad information. My brother told me he also has trouble filling his tank up all the way. The pump keep shutting off and he has to play with the angle of the pump nozzle to get it to work. Sound familiar?


Exactly. Sorry to read that your brother is having trouble too, but glad for the correction and knowing it’s unlikely something unique to my vehicle. Thanks to you and your brother for getting back to me so soon!

Quote:
What I can tell you is that I live in Tacoma, WA and he lives in Seattle, WA. Whenever I filled his van or the 83 Doge van I used to own, I never had a problem filling up with gas. He tells me he has problems when he fills it with gas. I have noticed that as of a few years ago, at least, I could still find gas stations around Tacoma that lacked ANY vapor recovery system on the nozzles, although most now have some kind of nozzle vapor recovery system now.

I think what you are experiencing is redesigned vapor recovery nozzles not playing nice with older fill pipes and fill pipe angles designed for non-vapor recovery systems. I think you have checked every part of your system, and it all sounds to be fine. I think you will just have to live with the pain of willing an older car using modern pumps. Or carry a couple big gas cans, fill those, then use them to fill your van.


That’s where my thinking has been heading. For now, i remain optimistic that possibly a later filler neck with a different vent design might drop in and work. If the mounting is the same (i don’t know yet) and the shape is close to the same, if i can find one i should be able to screw + clamp it in and try it. Worst-case is the design is different and won’t fit. Neutral would be i’d be out time and money if it works the same or worse (since i can switch back to the current one).

If matv91 is still reading this thread, it would be great to know exactly or approximately the model year of the newer van he saw with the half moon vent in the fill pipe opening. It’s been years since i’ve gone wrecking yard parts diving… seems it may be time for that again.

I’ve also learned there’s a lively aftermarket for fill pipes. If nothing usable turns up in the wrecking yards, i may try getting in contact with one or more of the manufacturers of those with my issue and see whether there’s anything they can do to help.

Finally, if nothing else works out, there might be a slight glimmer of hope:
EPA says outdated gas vapor recovery nozzles no longer required
Seems the onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR) mandate for each motor vehicle (cars, trucks) which started in 1998 has been effective and makes the gas station’s vapor recovery equipment redundant. Happening now in Phoenix, AZ.

But i’m in California, where apparently they’re only allowing private fleet operations with all/near-all ORVR vehicles to use Stage II exempt fueling equipment (various sources including here). :roll:

Looks like there was a change to Enhanced Vapor Recovery which rolled out in practice sometime in 2009. With my van non-operational from 2008 until last year, this could be one possible/partial explain why i noticed such a (detrimental) difference over this past year vs. previous years/decades.

I don’t consider my personal saga over just yet, though unless someone has something last-minute in the next day or so, i’ll go ahead and put everything back together and resume struggling along for now. My current To Do for this:

    * See if matv91 has more information on the model year (known or estimated) of the van with the half moon fill pipe vent he saw, then do a wrecking yard tour and hope. Maybe chat with my friendly and helpful Dodge parts guy.

    * Fine-tune my technique at the pump, using new knowledge i’ve recently learned in this process. If i find anything consistently brilliant, i’ll post here.

    * If the above is insufficient, get with fill pipe makers with my issue and find out whether they think they can make one which will work better.

Thanks again to everyone who’s contributed—greatly appreciated.

))Sonic((

_________________
1981 B-150 short Van, stock 225, California emissions package, Electronic Spark Advance (digital Lean Burn), Non-feedback Holley 1945, AT
Driven for economy, not for speed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:00 am 
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Turbo EFI

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:19 pm
Posts: 1327
Car Model:
First time back to yard is saturday afternoon. At dealer ask to see Technical service bulletin number 14-06a-78, Auust 9 1978.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:31 pm 
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Turbo EFI

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:19 pm
Posts: 1327
Car Model:
http://www.factorychryslerparts.com/sho ... eLine=7337 Look around on that site,different years etc


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