--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response to such an idiotic statement will merely get this thread locked....so I just wont say it

_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

I think Dan makes some excellent air bag points. I take a 3 point approach: Install 4 point harnesses,,,,,,,,wear them.....disconnect airbag.

_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

Red herring. "Changing nature" is not the issue. Damaging our (one and only) environment such that it's eventually no longer able to support us in the manner to which we've become accustomed is the issue, and that's something we humans have shown ourselves able to do with particular efficiency. We do not exist separately from "nature", we are part of it, along with all the rest of the animals, all the plants, the air and water, the earth itself that make up our environment. It is dangerous and foolhardy to make changes selfishly, without regard to the short- and long-term consequences, or assuming there'll be no negative consequences just because we don't know what they'll be or don't understand them (or because they'll impact on other people, or our kids, or their kids, rather than upon ourselves).

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

-okay i normally don't get involved in these type of discussions, but i can't help it this time. this is something that i feel strongly about.

-the whole train thing pretty much proves my point. yea maybe one person in front of a train wouldn't stop it, or one person venting gases wouldn't cause enough damage that the environment wouldn't repair itself. but its not one person, its billions. imagine just 100 people laying on the tracks of your "environmental train" the train would be derailed. same as the environment with the stresses of billions of people.

-with knowledge comes resposibility and the obligation to spread that knowledge. you wouldn't pour used motor oil down the drain or onto the ground? well it wasn't too long ago that was acceptable. openly venting the A/C is hazardous/illegal and should not be done. if you choose to do that, then that is your business, but to advise someone else to do that is irresponsible, to put it extremely nice

-also stating that you are in the A/C business to justify your suggestion, that only makes it worse...

-visit a third world country where they have contaminated everything, water, soil, air. you will be glad we have all those tree hugging laws!

That's an excellent point. There's no such a thing as just one person venting the Freon from a car A/C. If it's OK for one person to do it, then it's OK for everybody to do it, and the results, as you say, are easily visible in China or Mexico City or Honduras or India or any other completely polluted country where there aren't any serious controls on the release of chemicals into the environment.
Well, it's also incredibly shortsighted, because it exposes him to extremely large Federal fines. Whoever drops a dime on him also stands to receive a hefty reward.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Have we forgotten that I said that I do not vent refrigerant because I have the equipment?
You can not be fined for recommending such action. It maybe frowned on, as it seems that that is very clearly so.
I mispoke when I said it won't hurt the enviroment. What I ment to say is that I believe the clorine introduced to swimming pools is of a far greater concern. Some of you disagree that clorine in pools is of no concern. So be it.
I have found that when attacked some knee gerk beeline statments can fly in and effort to defend ones self.

Venting refrigerant does cause harm to the enviroment. I just think there are bigger issues to get in and uproar about.

_________________
67Cuda,FAST EZEFI,340cu,CR=10.25,RollerCam&Rocker (XR268HR,#20-810-9)(#1622-16)(EddyRPM#60779,#7576), (MSD6AL,#6425) A904, GearVendorsOD, 8 1/4,3.55:1, ClassicAir

Changing nature is exactly the issue. An environment can be a clean room in a building, nature is the world around us. But it doesn't matter what it's called, we can't change it. Look at history, everything that man has done has been a lest change by nature. Man can't permentlly change anything, it's hard enough to change something about ourselves. Look at the pyramids of Egypt, one of the greastest kingdoms that man ever built. Buried for thousands of years. The city of Pompeii was totally destroyed a volacno. If the people present world, and if the world was totally polluted as much as you environmentlist seam to think it is, were to vanish all at once, in a couple hundred years nothing that man has made or has done well be left.

You people clam to be so informed, yet you won't do any hard research from true scientist with neutral objectives. And look at history, at what man has done and how ultimately insignificant it was.
So you are so green lovin' that your going to turn an American in are you.

But now I'm tired of trying to reason with you people, it's like trying to reason with two year olds.

But what really got it to speak up was that you Canadians, I say that because you the only ones to respond with the environmet junk, gave an American , of which you brought up, a verbal trashing when he gave some advice.

But above all this, above being an American, know that we, man can't effect the natural world is because of Gods Holy Word. God created the world, God alone has power over it. And only God can destroy it.

But you don't, and probably won't, belive me. You don't have to, but there will be severe consequences for your unbelief.

Just remember when life is at its hardest, and it seams that everything and everyone is against you, there at your lowest and seamingly all alone.... Jesus is there with you, takeing care of you. Jesus loves you, more than you may ever know.

Don't worry about the world, the world is in Gods hands and He's going the make everything right very soon.

May God bless you and keep you all!

lol

_________________
I've been calling it as i see it for my entire life and that's not about to change. Take it or leave it.

Tell me more about your loving god's wrath please.

_________________
I've been calling it as i see it for my entire life and that's not about to change. Take it or leave it.

"Don't worry about the world, the world is in Gods hands and He's going the make everything right very soon."

There is something about the born again ,,,,,Jesus will save us thing.....that completely leaves out personal responsibility.......keeps me agnostic.

_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

Okay, you need to remember that (a) the pyramids used to be nickel plated, but the nickel was all stolen, and (b) the pyramids are made of stone, and (c) the pyramids were largely buried in sand, and therefore not exposed to man or the elements, for hundreds of years.
That's not true either. Pompeii was not destroyed but preserved due to a veyr rare set of circumstances. Before the molten lava could melt everything, the city was blanketed by several feet of ash, then the pyroclastic flow (more ash and rubble), and then was buried in a mudslide. This effectively sealed the city for hundreds of years. SImilar to the pyramids, this protected it. This is an unusual occurence, not at all common.
What man has done has NOT been insignificant. Comparing man's interaction with the biosphere in the last 150 years to his previous three millenia of interaction is really a case of comparing apples to oranges. Not only has man discovered petro-chemicals and all the other non-naturally occurring substances, but the population of mankind has grown exponentially. Prior to industrialization and the discovery of highly toxic chemical compounds and substances, man's interaction with nature was limited to essentially the equivalent of large scale natural occurrances (I.E. draining a swamp was the same as a highly localized draught, or pollution from a city was the same as a VERY large herd of animals defecating in one place, etc...) With the advent of modern technology man began introducing into nature substances and chemicals which were not naturally occurring and which nature had no means of absorbing or combating. Additionally, traditional human practices (such as water consumption) which previously posed no threat due to man's relatively small numbers, began to have a much greater impact on nature due to the simple fact of more people.

Mankind is doing truly terrifying things to nature. Bio-engineering is one of the most frightening. The Monsanto corporation has developed stocks of crops which only grow when Monsanto chemical products (usually "Round-Up") is applied to the seeds. Alternatively, Monsanto has also created crops which will survive the spraying of lethal herbicides. The problem with these crops is several: (1) Before growing and selling these crops Monsanto did not do any testing of the long term effects of bioengineered roducts on human (2) when the crop goes to seed the bees and other natural pollenators cross-mingle the genetic stock between bioengineered products and natural plants, bringing the bioengineered gene with them. Initial response to bioengineered crops like wheat and corn has shown that it can causes severe allergic reactions in humans. Even more terrifying is the fact that Monsanto has introduced (and patented) a "Terminator" gene into several lines of its engineed seeds. These seeds will grow for one season but the resulting seeds will be sterile. The problem is if the flowers from the "Terminator" plants ever pollinate non-Terminator stock but the Terminator gene is transferred to the natural stock. The new seeds would make one crop and then famine.

This is but one small example of the kinds of effects modern man is having on the environment which even 200 years ago man could not have done. Our ancestors didn't have radioactive waste, plastics, petro-chemicals, genetic engineering, exotic metals, electronics, etc... Our ancestors were also much less wasteful than modern (industrialized) humans are.
Yeah, happily. If all you do is poison your on well, I don't care. But when I share that well with you I will turn you in if you are poisoning it.
Look, America has basically been a big fat spoiled country for the past 50 years. It resulted from an interesting confluence of events. We hung back from entering World War II until the infrastructures of most other industrialized nations was toast. We were on the winning side after World War II so we got several things: (1) nearly free reign to set economic policies (2) easy and cheap access to the world's rsources, (3) a largely unchallenged position at the top of the competition for modern products and technology, and (4) a feeling of natural superiority with played right into our arrogant "manifest destiny" philosophy. The end result is that American have been happily using up the world's resources for the past 50 odd years without really knowing or caring about the effects. America has the near unique position to be separated from most of the rest of the world by geographic features, and the American has willfully resisted learning about the result of American economic and technological policies (sweat shops, dumping of toxic waste by American companies in foreign lands, etc...). Additionally, due to our capitalist bent, American scientists and companies rushed to put products on the market before really understanding the long-term effect of those products (ever seen the old commercials for DDT where they drove down the neighborhood street and sprayed it on all the kiddies playing in the front yards?). The end result is that we have happily and mostly unknowingly, but not always, been bleeding the earth dry but pumping poison into the air, water, and earth for the past 100 years or so.
Tell that to the Dodo and all the other hundreds of species that man has made extinct through clearcutting, slash and burn agriculture, over fishing, pollution, etc....
You know, I am a Christian, and I do believe in God, and I do believe he watches over me and protects me, but I also remember reading something about how man is the steward of the earth and he must watch over it. By the same token, I think mankind also has to bear some responsibility for what it does in this life and to this planet.

You can't hide from reality behind the walls of a church. You can't avoid responsibility for the results of your actions by saying, "God loves me, he will fix everything!"

Of course, if you mean that God will fix the problem by ensuring that man's effect on the planet will render it uninhabitable by man in the next 100-200 years, then you may be right.

H'm. I think it's about time to start the stopwatch ticking so we can see how soon this thread gets locked. Soon, we might hope. Religious preaching isn't acceptable on the board; this thread has crossed a line. Reed, you made some excellent and cogent points. Dusterdougr, you are very obviously in no position to be talking about science, knowledge or intelligence.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

This is getting out of hand and I am responsiable for this one. I'll keep my posts a little more on topic in the future.

One thing I find very interesting is the passion some show, and thats good. I would agree with Dan this is not really and religous forum and it should be locked. Mainly so I don't have to see my fruit.

_________________
67Cuda,FAST EZEFI,340cu,CR=10.25,RollerCam&Rocker (XR268HR,#20-810-9)(#1622-16)(EddyRPM#60779,#7576), (MSD6AL,#6425) A904, GearVendorsOD, 8 1/4,3.55:1, ClassicAir

Good attitude and good idea, but don't sweat it too hard; I've certainly posted more than my share of "Geeze, I wish I hadn't posted that" messages here over the years. Most of 'em are still visible as reminders to me!

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Okay, yeah, I have been feeling pretty stressed lately. I will not post anymore on this topic.

Hopefully we can agree to disagree and let this thread fade away. This is not the place for ravings on the world's situation.

I'm just a frustrated history major cum lawyer. Besides, would you listen to a guy who wears a tinfoil hat?

_________________
Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.