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 Post subject: High rpm loss of power.
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 4:19 pm 
I'm getting my "Screamin' Six" 1971 Valiant ready for Columbus, and am trying to fix the only engine problem: At high rpm's (4000+), acceleration becomes surge,die,surge,die. If you keep your foot in it long enough, it'll get to 5000 rpm, but this will never make a good time in a /6 race. I've been working on it today and doing some test runs. Holding it in second gear at WOT, the engine accelerates good to 4000, then just doesn't want to rev higher, except for the surge-die thing. After shifting to third, it continues to do it, only now at 3500 or so rpm.

Today, I finally changed the secondary jetting in the 450 Holley. Went from a #9 metering plate to a #39. The equivalent of going from a #64 jet to #69, according to the Holley book at the auto parts store. I also pulled back the ignition timing, first from 33 degrees to 30 (total), then to 27. Each change seemed to help a little, but it is still unacceptable.

I wonder if it may be the big block fuel pump. It is a higher volume unit, but the outlet has a very small inside diameter, in the 3/16" to 1/4" range (?!?!?!). And it requires a 90 degree adapter to hook up the fuel line, which also has a small I.D. in it. I may try a new stock /6 fuel pump. Or maybe raise the float levels in the Holley a little above the ideal of fuel starting to come out of the holes.

The spark plugs are at 32 now, and I'm using a NEW (NOS) electronic distributor, cap, and rotor. It has stock electronic ignition and a stock coil on it.

I need to get this thing fixed in the next few days.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 5:45 pm 
Quote:
: I'm getting my "Screamin' Six" 1971
: Valiant ready for Columbus, and am trying to
: fix the only engine problem: At high rpm's
: (4000+), acceleration becomes
: surge,die,surge,die. If you keep your foot
: in it long enough, it'll get to 5000 rpm,
: but this will never make a good time in a /6
: race. I've been working on it today and
: doing some test runs. Holding it in second
: gear at WOT, the engine accelerates good to
: 4000, then just doesn't want to rev higher,
: except for the surge-die thing. After
: shifting to third, it continues to do it,
: only now at 3500 or so rpm.
:
: Today, I finally changed the secondary jetting
: in the 450 Holley. Went from a #9 metering
: plate to a #39. The equivalent of going from
: a #64 jet to #69, according to the Holley
: book at the auto parts store. I also pulled
: back the ignition timing, first from 33
: degrees to 30 (total), then to 27. Each
: change seemed to help a little, but it is
: still unacceptable.
:
: I wonder if it may be the big block fuel pump.
: It is a higher volume unit, but the outlet
: has a very small inside diameter, in the
: 3/16" to 1/4" range (?!?!?!). And
: it requires a 90 degree adapter to hook up
: the fuel line, which also has a small I.D.
: in it. I may try a new stock /6 fuel pump.
: Or maybe raise the float levels in the
: Holley a little above the ideal of fuel
: starting to come out of the holes.
:
: The spark plugs are at 32 now, and I'm using a
: NEW (NOS) electronic distributor, cap, and
: rotor. It has stock electronic ignition and
: a stock coil on it.
:
: I need to get this thing fixed in the next few
: days.


Sounds to me like a fuel problem. If you are running the stock gas tank make sure the sock filter that goes over the end of the line on the sending unit is not stopped up. If it is you might want to think about dropping the tank and cleaning it out. I had the one on my 68 Valiant get clogged and it ran great till I would go up a hill and make it demand more fuel. I took the filter off, threw it away and put an inline filter in between the tank and the line to the fuel pump. You could also have a fuel pump problem too.

mwhiteho@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 7:43 pm 
Quote:
: I'm getting my "Screamin' Six" 1971
: Valiant ready for Columbus, and am trying to
: fix the only engine problem: At high rpm's
: (4000+), acceleration becomes
: surge,die,surge,die. If you keep your foot
: in it long enough, it'll get to 5000 rpm,
: but this will never make a good time in a /6
: race. I've been working on it today and
: doing some test runs. Holding it in second
: gear at WOT, the engine accelerates good to
: 4000, then just doesn't want to rev higher,
: except for the surge-die thing. After
: shifting to third, it continues to do it,
: only now at 3500 or so rpm.
:
: Today, I finally changed the secondary jetting
: in the 450 Holley. Went from a #9 metering
: plate to a #39. The equivalent of going from
: a #64 jet to #69, according to the Holley
: book at the auto parts store. I also pulled
: back the ignition timing, first from 33
: degrees to 30 (total), then to 27. Each
: change seemed to help a little, but it is
: still unacceptable.
:
: I wonder if it may be the big block fuel pump.
: It is a higher volume unit, but the outlet
: has a very small inside diameter, in the
: 3/16" to 1/4" range (?!?!?!). And
: it requires a 90 degree adapter to hook up
: the fuel line, which also has a small I.D.
: in it. I may try a new stock /6 fuel pump.
: Or maybe raise the float levels in the
: Holley a little above the ideal of fuel
: starting to come out of the holes.
:
: The spark plugs are at 32 now, and I'm using a
: NEW (NOS) electronic distributor, cap, and
: rotor. It has stock electronic ignition and
: a stock coil on it.
:
: I need to get this thing fixed in the next few
: days.


It sounds like your running the float bowls dry. Check the sock in the tank and also make sure the fuel line is not partly clogged with rust. Does not have to be blocked, just restricted. Did you do the necessary modifications to the 440 pump?

flturbo6@aol.com


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 8:25 pm 
Quote:
: It sounds like your running the float bowls
: dry. Check the sock in the tank and also
: make sure the fuel line is not partly
: clogged with rust. Does not have to be
: blocked, just restricted. Did you do the
: necessary modifications to the 440 pump?


When I rework those BB pumps, I drill-out / deburr everything so it will flow way more fuel then a SL6 will ever use. One other thing to watch is that the pump piston travel may need adjusting. On some of the SL6 pump arms I have swapped-in, they "top-out" above the cam eccentric, that's right, they don't even make contact untill you get way into the cam hump. I just install a shim in between the arm notch and the pump piston rod and set it so the arm is always in contact with the cam lobe and the piston gets a full stroke.

If you run out of time, get your hands on an electric pump and mount it back by the tank. (blow through all the fuel lines & sock while things are apart) The electric pump will push fuel right through a mechanical pump.
DD


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 8:49 pm 
Quote:
: It sounds like your running the float bowls
: dry. Check the sock in the tank and also
: make sure the fuel line is not partly
: clogged with rust. Does not have to be
: blocked, just restricted. Did you do the
: necessary modifications to the 440 pump?


I swapped the /6 arm into the 440 pump, but didn't do anything else to it. There was no free play in the pump stroke when I operated it by hand, so I don't think there's a problem with only getting a partial stroke.
I have 3/8" fuel line and a 3/8" filter between the pump and carburetor. I'll try blowing out the line with an air compressor and see if it helps any. The car has a full (stock) gas tank in it now, so I need to run it down before I can pull out the fuel pickup. When I do, I'll cut off the sock filter and just use the one 3/8" filter. I don't think there's any line problems, but I'll check for kinks or other damage to it.
I can run this engine at 3300-3500 rpm on the highway for miles at a time, and there's no problems. It's only when the 4 barrels open up that it draws too much fuel. When cruising around, the car seems to feel a little better with less ignition advance in it. Not a huge change, just a little one.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 7:15 am 
Tim,

It may be a carb problem too. I had troubles like this on my Holley 4 bbl at one time. The secondaries were not opening fast enough because they are calibrated for a larger engine. You might try getting a quick-change sec. spring kit and see if that helps. Probably try a stock fuel pump too after you have checked the lines and such. I have run my slants to 14.30s consistent with a 600 carb and stock (rebuild) pump.

Lou


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 8:06 am 
Quote:
: I swapped the /6 arm into the 440 pump, but
: didn't do anything else to it. There was no
: free play in the pump stroke when I operated
: it by hand, so I don't think there's a
: problem with only getting a partial stroke.


Check to be sure the arm contacts the cam lobe at all times. Pull the pump and rotate the engine to the backside of the lobe, the pump body will need to be pushed down a bit to get the bolts to start. If the pump holes line right up with no arm / spring resistance, you should add the shim(s)
:
: ...little better with less ignition advance in
: it. Not a huge change, just a little one.

28 to 30º total advance is a good place to start with most slants, the time clock will allw you to test from there.
DD


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2002 9:50 am 
Quote:
: Tim,
:
: It may be a carb problem too. I had troubles
: like this on my Holley 4 bbl at one time.
: The secondaries were not opening fast enough
: because they are calibrated for a larger
: engine. You might try getting a quick-change
: sec. spring kit and see if that helps.
: Probably try a stock fuel pump too after you
: have checked the lines and such. I have run
: my slants to 14.30s consistent with a 600
: carb and stock (rebuild) pump.
:
: Lou


This carburetor is a Model 4160 450 Mechanical Secondary Holley. No problem with the secondaries not opening. I'm going to the auto parts store today and may buy another stock /6 pump to try. I'll ask if they have a high volume / high pressure version of it, but they didn't the last time.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 5:42 pm 
I don't recommend first blowing air into the fuel line, what it can do is blow rust particles, what have you, forcing them to concentrate at a restriction in the line and actually make it worse. I went to a speedometer repair shop and bought about 15-20 feet of inner speedo cable and use it like miniature plumber's snake and auger out the fuel lines. After you've knocked loose the worst of it you can try the compressed air.
Quote:
:
: I swapped the /6 arm into the 440 pump, but
: didn't do anything else to it. There was no
: free play in the pump stroke when I operated
: it by hand, so I don't think there's a
: problem with only getting a partial stroke.
: I have 3/8" fuel line and a 3/8"
: filter between the pump and carburetor. I'll
: try blowing out the line with an air
: compressor and see if it helps any. The car
: has a full (stock) gas tank in it now, so I
: need to run it down before I can pull out
: the fuel pickup. When I do, I'll cut off the
: sock filter and just use the one 3/8"
: filter. I don't think there's any line
: problems, but I'll check for kinks or other
: damage to it.
: I can run this engine at 3300-3500 rpm on the
: highway for miles at a time, and there's no
: problems. It's only when the 4 barrels open
: up that it draws too much fuel. When
: cruising around, the car seems to feel a
: little better with less ignition advance in
: it. Not a huge change, just a little one.


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