I'm not trying to prove him wrong...just looking for simpler explanations for the observed effect. Like you, I'd want to see a larger data pool and have some info on the precision of the test before I'd be comfortable deciding it means one thing, or the other, or both, or neither.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

It was Penzoil that was to be avoided because of "parafin". Thanks for the clarification on how the term parafin is used here. It was Penzoil that also left the guys SBC full of glop at the bottom of the pan. Maybe that was due to the 10-40 thing going on, and not the parafin, but in any event, it kind of scared me away from Penzoil since. That's been at least 40 years now!

Supton, exactly what are your numbers there trying to prove? I couldn't tell exactly from just reading it. Give me your hypothesis again please, and then show how the numbers prove, or disprove it. Thanks Man.

Sam

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I stopped using Pennzoil after a glop experience in 1989, and will never use it again.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Sure. The hypothesis (which is not my theory, btw--I didn't come up with it) is that the additives in motor oils are not fully activated straight out of the bottle; but rather require a bit of heat and pressure to become fully active. I don't know why that is.

The oil testing in the link shows several wear metals, along with silicon. [The only way silicon can get into the motor is either through the air filter--and past the rings--or from an air leak letting dust into the crankcase. This same testing can indicate when an air filter requires changing.] A major source of Fe particles (ie, iron) would be from cylinder bore wear; while the other metals are more related to bearing wear. Used Oil Analysis (UOA) is seemingly a common way to determine when oil needs to changed, based upon testing of the motor for wear metals (or soot, in the case of diesels), or if some engine damage has occured (antifreeze in the oil in small amounts, high silicon indicating a vaccum leak or torn air filter, high brass count meaning bad cam bearings in this particular type of motor, etc). Persons can then determine their Oil Change Interval (OCI) based upon actual measurements of the oil, rather than a manufacturer's recommendation; this can be helpful for people who a) drive alot, b) use expensive oil, or c) have setups that are not OEM stock.

Now, as the various metals wear, they do create a range of particle sizes. Particles larger than say 40microns will get caught in the oil filter, while smaller particles have a large chance of staying in the oil, and very small particles remain suspended in the oil. Ideally, in a motor with a slow wear rate, all the particles will be small; while a motor with runaway wear will create both large and small particles in high numbers. Meaning, for a "good" motor, one would only expect to see Fe in the oil, while for a "bad" motor one would see much more Fe in the oil *and* silver specs in the filter.

As pointed out, virgin oil straight out of the bottle is not somehow magically void of all metal particles. The oil may have 1ppm of Fe; that is, 1 part per million, or 0.0001% of the oil is iron particles. Plus, once put into a motor, whatever old oil is in there will containminate the new oil somewhat. So, a baseline measurement is taken after a short while of running, to estabilish a proper "time zero" iron content for the oil. For this example, let's say we run the motor for 100 miles, then have the oil tested, and the oil is measured to have 2ppm of iron particles in it.

Now, if the motor is run for some time, we would expect total iron content to go up. So, let's say we drive for 1,000 miles, and Fe count goes up to 4ppm. If we subtract off the baseline, we find that an additional 2ppm of metal shavings was added to the oil. We drive another 1,000 miles, and total count increases to 5ppm. In this second 1,000 miles, the wear rate is less--instead of wearing at a rate of 2ppm/kmiles, the wear is lower at 1ppm/kmiles.

The next 1,000 miles may yield 5ppm of metal in the oil, meaning no wear occured. Finally, the last 1,000 miles may yield a count of 20ppm, meaning 15ppm/kmile of wear--which would indicate that it is time for an oil change, as the wear rates have gone up dramatically.

By doing multiple tests on the oil, we can see a wear rate for the motor, based upon how fast the iron content of the oil rises inbetween samples. The hypothesis is that, because the additive package requires time/heat/pressure/? in order to properly protect the motor, we would expect to see slightly higher wear rates right after an oil change, in excess of cold start wear or the wear from starting initially with a dry oil filter. Supposedly, this is born out in some SAE paper (which I have not seen nor have I been able to find even a title to); and the guy in the link is attempting to determine, based upon his own testing on just one car, to see if the effect is valid or not.

And that's a major problem. You cannot prove or disprove an hypothesis with a sample of one. You can only say what happens in the one instance but not draw general conclusions. It would require a sample size of 10s or 100s of engines to be able to plot all the variables and variances to a reasonable degree of confidence.

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David Kight
'62 Valiant Signet, White
'98 Dodge Dakota
'06 Jeep Liberty

Growing older is unavoidable but growing up is strictly optional.

OK, my fingers slipped......(sorry about that) My "twice as slick" comment was purely a figure of speech. I apologize for coming across as gospel on anything regarding engine oil......I'm learning more all the time.
Dan, you nailed the company. As far as advertising, it's not a brag if you can back it up. I do not buy a product just because they have a better sales pitch. I have to see proof first, esp. when it comes to my engine. Working in a diesel shop, I have seen that oil take severe punishment.
We had an International Diesel combine(corn-picker) drag in one time, the engine was locked up. The farmer had drained the oil, got side-tracked, and forgot to reinstall the plug. He cranked it and drove two miles before it stopped. We pulled the engine, and the crank was fine. It was slightly blued in the center, but it turned true at .010.
Could Rotella have done that? I don't know....maybe. I couldn't care less how much oil Schaffer's sells. But I know this oil works, and I trust it. (And no Dan, there's nothing 'Magic" about it.) Like you said, the word "paraffin" is used interchangably. Maybe they have found a way to keep the paraffin particles apart, to avoid sludge? After reading and researching though, I am impressed with Valvoline. I'll probably try it next. That, or the new Rotella 5W-40 synthetic oil.
So far as oil being, "too slick", like I said, I'm still finding out information. I guess my engine builder could have honed the walls a little course.

As a side note, Quaker State is junk. We've seen more than one engine come in with sludge and hard carbon-like deposits on everything. I think it was mentioned earlier: the customer was shocked. "The oil was always clean on the dipstick before." I'm also not impressed with (standard) Castrol of any weight. I can't say anything about their synthetic blends.
That's my .02...
Please continue the discussion....I am following intently.

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225 Cubic Inches of Iron-Head American Muscle

225 bored .040 /.100 off block, Schneider Cam 224@.050~ .480 lift - Stock valves, blended bowls, Offenhauser intake with 500 Edelbrock carb

The worst oil I've ever used in my toyota truck was Valvoline........

Never had so much initial valve clatter than when I used Valvoline (just once) Once I replaced the oil, the clatter wasn't as bad (sohc, so there's always some initial noise)

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Do you think maybe the clatter could have been caused by a bad check valve in the oil filter? I had that experience with a filter once, and the problem went away simply by changing the filter. Was there an oil filter company called Lee? Or Lee/something? This was back in 1972 when my Duster was new. I have never had any problem with Valvoline. But, I am open to learning, and trying something better if it is out there.

Sam

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OK, the shark's been jumped. We've entered the phase where we toss around anecdotal gospel about which kinds of engine oil cause waxy buildup on our no-wax floors even though engine oil cannot possibly cause waxy buildup on floors, and which kinds of engine oil have the amazing property of protecting engines into which they haven't even been poured even though engine oil cannot possibly protect an engine that's been drained and not refilled, and all kinds of other noise.

This thread's been fun, but it's well overcooked, so...bye, y'all!

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

I think Dan has been reading Dusty's posts again.....

EDIT: Haha, so far as protecting the engine....don't forget. We DID have to rebuild the thing.

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225 Cubic Inches of Iron-Head American Muscle

225 bored .040 /.100 off block, Schneider Cam 224@.050~ .480 lift - Stock valves, blended bowls, Offenhauser intake with 500 Edelbrock carb

Who knows.........

I'm pretty consistent on oil filters and oil (usually purolator and (gtx or havoline)) with the truck. There was a sale on GTX, and they were out, so I got the valvoline for the sale price.................

And it was 15 years ago..............

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Yep, I remember LEE filters, Haven't seen them in ages.
Has anyone noticed that Castrol and copycat brands have dropped their "Start Up" line ? Guess that someone called them for proof. Maybe they didn't have any.

Was that the 4 cly 22R engine? If so that was not valve clatter. The 22R has solid lifters, and those engine had a problem with piston slap, at startup. Mine has been doing that for over 200,000 miles. Toyota did have a TSB about that (replace pistons with revised part at customer expense, since it was only a noise issue, and not a defect).
PS: My Toyota, had Quaker State 10-30 in it exclusivly, from brand new, untill QS was bought by Penzoil. Now I use the least expensive house brand.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225

22RE

Maybe 50,000 on the engine at the time. Noise quieted down with an oil change.... and it didn't sound like the piston slap which I get now if it's really cold outside (40-50, I'm in california).... it does sound like a diesel engine for a minute or two.

Where does the needle stay for oil pressure with the 10w30? I use 20w50 and it stays at the line at about 3/4 up.......

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Only real difference in the engines, is 22R= carbarated, 22 RE= fuel injected, 22RET = turbo charged. Turbo engine does have some internal differences. Mine is the 22RE, does not have a pressure gauge, just the idiot light. Know what is really wierd? Up untill this very moment, I never gave a thought to installing a gauge

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225