Hi the_shadow.
The positions on the ignition lock is usually referred to as 'start' and 'run'. When using a ballast resistor, there is usually a wire carrying current when cranking only, which is used to bypass the ballast resistor in the starting moment, giving full 12V to the coil. What you have done is absolutely OK, you could also just have left the brown one hanging there unconnected.

Olaf.

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Aspenized

My original thought was to leave the brown wire (+12v start only) disconnected and ONLY connect the purple wire (+12v run only). The problem was when the engine was cranking there was no spark. I had to release the key to the run position to get it to fire. That's why I had to use both wires.

My original question was if that was a normal/good/bad thing or not, but since i've been using it for a few days I guess it's OK. Just wondered why it wasn't mentioned (2 seperate wires) in any of the HEI wiring diagrams or anything.

I have picked up a Hemi Elecronic dissy and for all intense and purposes looks like it will fit a slant 6, it will arrive in a few days, any thoughts guys and if it doesn't I think i can transfer the electrics to my original dissy, RAYCYLED

Of the power relay, Dan says... <img src="http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/SL6/HEI/HEIWiringDiagramFinal.JPG">

...but I only see #87 attached to one thing, and it isn't the coil + (otherwise it would be attached to the same spot as the "B" terminal from the HEI, right?).

So, on that diagram, what is the protrusion on the other side of the coil that the #87 wire is connected to? And what/where is the "power terminal" that is being referred to?

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J.R.
Tucson, AZ
'68 Dart 270 with a '76-'80 engine

The first posts in this thread may be helpful.

Olaf

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Aspenized

Thanks, Olaf. It was somewhat helpful, but I still don't understand the e-core coil's connections. However, I realize now that the "power terminal" refers to the B terminal on the HEI. Connecting the wire from that B terminal to the + coil, and the #87 relay wire also to the + coil achieves the same thing as connecting the...
...Am I right?

This is probably confusing, so I've made my own wiring diagram as is currently set up on my car. You'll see I have five wires meeting where the ballast resistor was omitted, and three wires at the coil + .

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2da07b3127cceffa04d1b015a00000030O00EYtnDls3Zswe3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/">

Am I missing anything? Something you'd do different, anyone?

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J.R.
Tucson, AZ
'68 Dart 270 with a '76-'80 engine

I am by means no expert, BUT if you are using the relay, the blue wire that leads from your bundle to the + side of coil I would think could be omitted, you are feeding the coil 2x's with that wire (the blue wire AND the Yellow wire from relay), if i understand the function of using the relay. Just M2C and observations of the schematic drawn.

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MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Mroldfart2u is absolutely correct, ditch the blue wire to the coil, the power to the module and coil is supplied by the relay #87 connector only.

It may help to simplify things a bit, to just think of the module as an advanced switch.

• Positive current is supplied to module's connector 'B' from the #87 post at the relay, the same one is also feeding the coil.
• Negative current is supplied via the module's mounting screws.
• One wire from the module to the distributor is feeding the magnetic switching circuit in the distributor.
• The other wire from the distributor is transmitting the electric pulse, that occurs when a reluctor tooth passes the magnet in the distributor, back to the module. Those are the G and W wires.
• The module's internal electronics, uses that pulse from the distributor to cut the negative connection to the coil - C at the module, which in turn collapses the magnetic field in the coil and creates a high voltage spike that comes out as a spark at the spark plug.
• The coil has a primary and secondary winding, and is fed positive current all the time, it is the on/off switching of current to the secondary winding via the negative connector at the module, that does the job of creating and collapsing the magnetic field, carefully timed by the electronic circuit in the module. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_coil for details.

Also, remember to use good sized wires, some modules can draw up to 8 amps - that is why it also need a heat sink. (12Vx8=96Watts of heat)

A note on modules: The GM-type module uses an 'on' signal supplied by the distributor circuit, to be activated, therefore an electronic distributor is needed. An old Ford module uses the 'off' cut in the circuit, created by opening points in the distributor, to trigger the module. That type of module can be used with all points distributors, but not with electronic ones.

Olaf

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Aspenized

Thanks, Olaf and Mroldfart2u. I had actually wondered about that blue wire. Consider it nixed. And thanks for taking time to fill in some gaps in my understanding there, Olaf. Check and check on the 12ga wires and the heatsink. I'm soooooooooooooooooooooo eager to get this car up and running again.

Donpal took the time to message me also and I think I need to split the wire from post #87 to go to HEI terminal B and + coil. I would have thought the yellow and grey wires (see diagram from my previous post) would have accomplished the same thing, though. No?

Thanks gents. I'll be waist deep in it again this Friday.

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J.R.
Tucson, AZ
'68 Dart 270 with a '76-'80 engine

Not the most detailed photo, here you can see how I did it, but this is only one of many solutions: The relay is upper left, and the thicker red wire feeds the module, and the visible red/green wire that goes into the pigtail feed the coil via a double connector at the wire into the module. (BTW the green wire just hang loose in this photo) It works very well, I run NGK UR45IX plugs in my '77 Super Six engine (different plugs in earlier cyl. heads). They come pregapped at .059" (!), and have a beautyful light tan color after running them for 1 year, never had a miss, starting is very easy.
Of importance is good connections for all wires. The wire connectors in the photo are crimped, I have since replaced the wires with marine, tinned copper wires to prevent corrosion, and soldered connectors covered with Plast Dip. Some of you don't have those kind of problems, but 35 norwegian winters made their marks on the underhood wires...
Oh, BTW: The coil rusts! After mounting the coil, you may want to give it a spray with black paint, heat resistant if you're willing to afford it. Just see to that the four mounting screws makes good connection to ground.



Olaf

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Aspenized

More useful info, Olaf. Much thanks. Two quick, final questions:

1. What did you use to power the relay? I have mine connected to the battery post on the alternator, but further back someone suggested a line directly to the + battery terminal.

2. You have two green (with a yellow tracer?) wires coming off your (-) coil. One connects to the module, but what does the other go to? Just curious.

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J.R.
Tucson, AZ
'68 Dart 270 with a '76-'80 engine

jrdoj, I took power from the big connector on the starter relay sitting next to the brake booster. That one is connected directly to the battery. Note that the F-bodies and later, have some differences in the layout of the electrical system, compared to earlier models. I am currently redesigning/rebuilding all of it, and will have two live, fused and shielded multi-connector contact points - one near the front on each side - connected by big sized wire to minimize loss. There I can tap current for relays to the ignition, headlights, rad. fans and other future extras.

The extra wire to the negative post on the coil is a connection for a standard type rev counter. If it is not being used, just tape the end and leave in there, or cut it away.

Olaf

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Aspenized

I have everything I need for the HEI conversion including a new distributor from Ray at OCPNW and the correct module from NAPA. I had picked up the coil and connectors from the wrecking yard for nearly nothing so I got two. In the HEI discussion the correct coil is described as having a male high output terminal. The coils I got are black and riveted onto the bracket. They have a female output terminal.

Looking closely I noticed that while everything looks the same and the number stamped into the bracket is the same, one of the coils has two wires at the connection and the other has three wires.

If the three wire coil is good can I use that coil or do I need to buy a new blue coil based on the numbers provided in the article.

HEI experience
I did the HEI conversion last week with only a couple of glitches. I had found a coil/heat sink/bracket in the wrecking yard which looked like the one shown in the low cost approach message. The bracket had the same number. It was slightly different in that the coil was smaller and instead of having the male, spark plug type connection it had a different type of female connection which takes a smaller connector end on the main wire. It looks like a regular female coil connection but inside there is a rod sticking up in the center and the correct wire fits tightly onto that interior rod. Of course I had the whole thing mounted and wired up before I figured this out.

I went to NAPA to get a wire with the correct end for this coil, I already had the Echlin module (kind of expensive like 50+ bucks). The wire number called out in the conversion instructions was for the male to female regular connectors and not in stock. Even with the coil and wire there on the counter NAPA could not come up with a wire end for the coil I had.

I had them pull out the Echlin 27 coil and it was much larger. I went ahead and got it because I had wire ends that I could make up to work. The coil was not expensive, around $35 but the connector added almost $15. So I had around $100 in parts for the coil and module. Latter I was back in the wrecking yard and found the correct coil and bracket setup. That would have made it a bit easier and cheaper if the coil had been good and the wire and connectors included.

The coil and bracket that I had was riveted together with the coil. I ground out the rivets and had the two parts to the bracket. The new coil was both thicker and taller. With a little grinding, drilling and bending I got a very stout bracket set up with the heat sink mounted on the opposite side. I was very careful with the grounding. I already had a relay installed for direct power from the alternator to the coil.

The coil unit was heavy and a little tall (wide) to mount on the wheel well without interfering with the plug wires etc. I mounted the L shaped bracket to a fender mounting bolt and drilled another hole for a 5/16 bolt and nut through the fender. I ran another ground to that bolt. I ended up with a good installation, high and dry with good access to the connections and out of the way of the distributor and wires.

The most exciting part was that I had bought a new distributor from Ray at Old Car Parts NW. It comes complete with new cap, rotor, sender, vacuum can. It was a great deal. Ray is definitely a fantastic resource for us. The old distributor was the same one I had run on two different motors and with both single barrel and super six carb set ups. I suspected my rough idle which had continued through all those changes might be due to play in the distributor or a broken tooth. The old distributor looked pretty good and the new set up did not completely clear up the idle issue.

Anyway it sparked right up. I re-gaped my NGK UR5 plugs to 45. I timed it to 8 and checked the mechanical advance at 2000 RPM at around 22 and total advance with the can at around 34. All said and done, I have around $200 in a totally new ignition system except plug wires.

With confidence in this new ignition set up I looked back to my carb and valves. I will post some lessons learned in posts related to tune up and idle. As always the very explicit instructions, diagrams, parts list and blog file made this conversion possible. I simply would not have attempted it without that guidance.

I'm planning on doing this conversion soon and I've pulled this unit out of a 99 Blazer. I know I'll need a new module but just wanted to double check if this coil was fine to use or would you recommend a new E-Coil or Blaster coil? Looks to be the same one pictured in Dan's post. Thanks!

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64 Dart GT - 225