Once you push down on the spring & spring retainer, the "keepers" should just "fall-off" the valve stem in two sections.
It is a good idea to take a hammer and give each spring retainer a solid tap on it's edge, to "break it loose" from varnish and the wedging / collet action created from the design.
DD

NORMALLY no they dont just "jump" out. Fall to the retainer maybe. You are right, altho it may end up in the darnedest place imaginable. Remember they can fall to the retainer, then off the retainer to aforementioned hole in head, "to never be seen again" until you pull the pan to locate...

G/L today JC hope YOUR day goes well, with no run-away keepers.

_________________
MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Hey Doc,
YES!
YES!

Doc, let me tell you where this procedure is at the present:

Have ALL the passages into the Engine stuffed neatly with Shop Cloths. Have light colored Towels around the Valve area of the Cylinder Head. It looks like a surgical zone!

Have removed the Distributor Cap to be able to tell by the Rotor Postition where the Number 6 Piston is.

Have figured that when the Rotor is 90 degrees either side of the Number 6 position on the Distributor that the Number 6 Piston would be at BDC.

Inserted the Magic Rope into Cylinder Number 6. A goodly amount went in.

Was unable to turn the Engine using the Fan, as Lorrie's Engine has only 25,000 miles on this build and is still VERY tight.

Just barely touched the Start Switch to get the Number 6 Piston to come up against the Magic Rope. Did this a number of times, till it got it to where the Engine wouldn't turn any more. It is OBVIOUS that the Number 6 Piston is up against the Magic Rope and the Magic Rope is up against the Number 6 Intake and Exhaust Valves.

Placed the Valve Spring Compressor on the Number 6 Intake Valve Spring and snugged it down. Put a section of Sweat Sock over the whole Assembly, with just the Hand Wheel sticking out the top. This is to catch the Keepers in case they decide that they would like to jump out and get lost.

Started turning on the Valve Spring Compressor, and it did what it was supposed to do.

Was able to remove the Keepers from their Place on the Valve Stem using a pair of Hemostats. The Keepers resisted a bit at first, but then came right out. No monkey business out of either one of them.

Removed the Spring and Spring Retainer from the Cylinder Head, which exposed the Valve Stem Seal which was still in perfect shape. It is not hard, not torn, but is perfect in every way.

Gave the space between the Valve Stem and Valve Guide some AeroKroil. The AeroKroil went right in. Am going to start dissolving the OLD Gasoline Residue with Acetone.

BUT now, there is another problem. The Number 6 Piston won't back off of the Magic Rope. Can't turn the Engine backward with the Fan. Tried a Socket and Ratchet Handle on the 1.25 Nut in the Damper, but was unable to budge the Engine, and there isn't enough room to get a Breaker Bar with the Socket on it.

Need to get the Number 6 Piston backed off to make it to where the Valve will get loose in the Guides so that it will move up and down a little and be able to spin.

This is where the procedure sits at the moment.

None of this has to be done to the Exhaust Valves as none of them are stuck and are "springy" when tapped with a Ball Peen Hammer. But, thought that since we're doing this, might as well go ahead and install the NEW Exhaust Valve Stem Seals anyway.

But the problem is now getting the Engine turned to where the Number 6 Piston will back off of the Number 6 Intake Valve.

Any suggestions.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. OF,
Now that one has been done, am no longer afraid of what might happen.
They AREN'T all the difficult, but having never done this, THAT was not known. Thus the question.
They'd play hell getting into the pan with the surgical operation preparation that has been affected.
Thanks. The problem NOW is getting the Number 6 Piston to back off of the Magic Rope about an inch so that the Number 6 Intake Valve will loosen up so that it can be moved up and down and spun a little with Acetone, and AeroKroil on it to dissolve the Old Gasoline Varnish Residue.

But progress is being made, steady by jerks. This situation too will pass.

Hope you are well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Friday Afternoon Update.

Gave Number 6 Intake Valve a couple of syringes of Acetone. It seemed to run right through the space between the Valve Stem and the Valve Guide. But Number 6 Intake Valve wasn't stuck in the first place. It was just the Valve that got chosen to work on first because it was easily accessible and I needed to learn how to do this procedure.

Got the Number 6 Intake Valve put back together complete with a new Valve Stem Seal.

Am not going to do anything to any of the Exhaust Valves, because none of them are stuck, and the condition of the Valve Stem Seal on Number 6 Intake Valve indicates that there is nothing wrong with the Valve Stem Seals.

The problem now is that the Magic Rope won't come out of Cylinder Number 6.

Can't turn the Engine backward to get the Number 6 Piston to back off the Magic Rope.

If a way to get the Engine to rotate backwards about an inch, the Magic Rope would come out.

There HAS to be a way to do this.

When trying to turn the Engine with the Fan, the belt doesn't slip, but the Engine just won't turn.

Was thinking that maybe if the Radiator was removed again that one could get to the 1.25" Bolt in the Nose of the Crankshaft and use a Breaker Bar to turn the Engine, but as tight as the Engine is, it would probably just unscrew the Bolt.

Maybe take the cover off of the Bell Housing and pry against the Flywheel Teeth?

It wouldn't take very much of a turn to get the Magic Rope to come loose.

Any suggestions?

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

You are probably right. If you have the removable style dust cover that is the way I would proceed. And even if not maybe just maybe removal of the starter to get to the ring gear (teeth) and pry there. Just an idea...

_________________
MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Hey Mr. OF,
I was wrong! Went out with the Breaker Bar, and a Socket to fit the Head of the Bolt in the Nose of the Crankshaft. Gave the Bolt a good tightening, and then tried turning the Engine retrograde. Wonder of wonders, the Damper moved backwards about an inch.

Got out from under Lorrie, went around the starboard side Door and pulled on the Magic Rope, and it came right out, slick as a whistle!
Looked at THAT. That would be harder than taking the Cylinder Head off.
Good thought.

BUT, the good news is that the Breaker Bar and a Socket worked. So no having to pry on any teeth.

NOW, it's only the Number One and Number 3 Intake Valves that are showing any signs of Sticking. Am going to concentrate on those two next. Now that it is known how to turn the Engine in both directions using the Breaker Bar, things should go a bit easier.

But am out of energy for today.

Besides, it has gotten too warm out there for me, AND the mosquitoes are out in force.

Am just going to say that enough physical fun has been had for one day, and pack it in.

Am all cleaned up, and will be out early tomorrow morning while it's cool to do Intake Valves Number 1 and 3.

It's been a good day. A LOT has been learned.

"All's well that ends well." (W. Shakespeare)

And Mr. OF, thanks for the response and suggestions. Your input is very much appreciated.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Daniel,
Have been wanting to respond to this quote.

Lorrie's Rocker Shaft and Rocker Arms are as clean right now as they were on the day that they were put back on the Engine after having had them boiled out when her mighty 225 Slant Six Engine was rebuilt in 1985.

And what I am about to tell you may appall some here, but the reality is that Lorrie Van Haul has had but ONE oil change since she she came to live with me in 1975, and that was when she was rebuilt in 1985. She had NEW oil put into her rebuilt Engine at that time, and has not had it changed since.

And Ms. American 3.14159, the only 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web has 297,000+ miles on her (97,000+ on the Odometer on the third time around) 390 FE Engine, and she has had but ONE oil change in her entire lifetime. That was when NEW oil was put into here rebuit Engine after it was rebuilt in 1989.

She still puts up 80 psi of Oil Pressure at idle cold, and 65 psi on the road at operating temperature.

If one were to take either one of these Engines apart today, one would find that they are perfectly clean on the inside, with no sludge, or gunky build-up anywhere in the engine. In fact, when Ms. American's Engine was taken apart at 168,000 miles, the mechanics at the shop where I was doing the rebuild said: "This engine has just been rebuilt!". That's how clean the insides of the Engine were.

If one pulls the Dip Stick in either of these Engines, and looks at the Oil on the end of it, it looks like it just came out of the bottle.

"To what is this attributed?" you might ask.

The answer is: To their Frantz Oil Cleaners.

My father was a Frantz Oil Cleaner Dealer, and he put a Frantz Oil Cleaner on Ms. American when she was bought new in 1964. And he put one on Lorrie Van Haul the first time that we visited him in Cherry Valley, California back in 1975.

For those who don't know about the Frantz Oil Cleaner system, it is a by-pass filter unit that has an adapter that screw onto an Engine where the Oil Filter usually goes.

From that adapter a hose goes to the Frantz Unit.

There is another hose that returns the oil to the Engine's Oil Gallery.

The filtering element in the Frantz Oil Cleaner is a roll of Two-Ply, Facial-Quality, Toilet Paper.

The Toilet Paper Element is changed every 3,000 miles and the oil level topped off to compensate for any oil lost in changing the element.

The element has 10,000 times the filtering power of a regular filter.

The instructions that come with the unit say to put the unit on the Engine and run it for 500 miles, and change the element and top off the oil.

Run it for another 500 miles and change the element and top off the oil.

At this time, the oil will be as clean as it was when it came out of the bottle.

After that, one changes the element every 3,000 miles.

The element does not allow any particles back into the Engine, AND it removes 100% of the moisture from the oil.

It is moisture in the oil that turns into sulfuric and hydrochloric acids which eat away at an Engine.

Anyway, I tell you this because Lorrie's Rocker Shaft and Rocker Arms do not need boiling out. They are perfectly clean.

I'm not a Frantz Dealer, nor am I advertising for Frantz. Am just telling you this as a Frantz Oil Cleaner System USER.

More technical information about this remarkable system can be had by Googling "Frantz Oil Cleaner".

Anyway, am going to be cleaning the rest of Lorrie's Valve Stems and Guides of the OLD Gasoline Varnish Residue tomorrow using the Magic Rope Trick.

Hope this finds YOU doing well, and hanging in there.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hooboy.

I am not a faithful true believer in the Frantz religion; instead I hold the radical view that toilet paper is for wiping one's tuchus and oil filters are for filtering oil.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hey Daniel,
I can appreciate that. But the fact remains, Oil Filters don't work. If they did you wouldn't have to change the Oil.

The oil that one drops off at Wal*Mart goes to a recycler. The recycler uses a filter much more like toilet paper than the accordian pleated coarse paper element in a "standard" Oil Filter. They remove the particulates and the moisture and then sell the oil as "reclaimed".

And I'll give you two to one odds on a test. Put NEW Oil into an Engine with a NEW Regular Filter. Run the Engine for 3,000 miles. Then check the oil. It will be ready to be changed. Instead of changing it, put a Frantz unit on the Engine and run it for 3,000 miles, and the oil will be clean again.

Plus, a roll of toilet paper is less than a buck. A new Oil Filter costs $5.00 to $7.00 and you have to change the Oil at $4.00 a quart.

I'm not a Frantz religious fanatic either, but I know when something works, and the Frantz Oil Cleaner performs as advertised.

Also, with a Frantz, you NEVER have to boil your Rocker Shaft and Rocker Arms ever again!

Nuff said.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hiya JC after some research into something I had never heard of before, your oil filter. I was like wow that's one expensive filter. Looks interesting but new oil is still my preferred method every 10k miles using high detergent diesel oil. I buy it at wally world for 21 dollars a gallon so I can do a lot of oil changes for 240 dollars after shipping on that filter setup. Plus I actually like changing my oil for some reason, maybe I am strange?

Hope today finds you well and making progress.

Robert

Hiya Robert,
I had no idea what the present price for the Frantz Oil Cleaner was. When my father was a dealer, they were $99.00 installed, but that was back in the '60s and '70s when a brand new Ford Galaxie 500 was $2,671.00!
Don't find that strange at all.
Have gotten Number 4 Cylinder's Intake and Exhaust Valves done. Put a LOT of Acetone and AeroKroil in the space between Number 4's Intake Valve Stem and Valve Guide.

Reassembled it, and now it is springy like the other Intake Valves when struck with a hammer.

But noticed a few things that have raised a couple of questions:

QUESTION: Noticed that the Number 6 Cylinder's Intake Valve Tip was about 3/64ths of an inch lower than the Number 6 Cylinder's Exhaust Valve Tip. This was ascertained by putting a straight edge across the Number 6 Exhaust Valve's Tip and the Number 5 Exhaust Valve's Tip. BUT then it was noticed that ALL the Intake Valves were also about 3/64th of an inch lower than the rest of the Exhaust Valves. Is this normal?

QUESTION: Acquired six Intake Valve Stem Seals and six Exhaust Valve Stem Seals. One is somwhat taller than the other. BUT on Lorrie's Valves ALL the Valve Stem Seals are like the taller of the two Seals. Is THIS normal?

Am going to be doing Cylinder Number 1's Intake Valve as it is the only other Intake Valve that exhibits any lack of springiness when struck with a hammer. Will get the Spring Assembly and Stem Seal removed and start the dousing of it with Acetone and Aerokroil. Hopefully that will free it up like it did Number 4's Intake Valve.

Everything seems to be going smoothly. Am getting to be more efficient at doing the Magic Rope Procedure with each time it is done.

Will keep you posted on progress.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Saturday Afternoon Update:

Have just finished doing Number 1 Cylinder's Intake Valve.

Took the Spring Assembly off, removed the Valve Stem Seal, and put four hypodermic needle's worth of Acetone, plus multiple spritzes of AeroKroil into the space between the Valve Stem and the Valve Guides.

All of the oil and solvent ran right through.

Hopefully it has dissolved the OLD Gasoline Varnish Residue enough for Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six to run with NEW Gasoline which will hopefully also have a cleansing action on the ALL the Intake Valve Stems.

After removing the Magic Rope, each valve was hit with the Ball Peen Hammer and they are ALL "springy".

What an education this has been. Have NEVER done anything like this before. And wonder of wonders, not a single Keeper got dropped! Want to thank everyone for the help and encouragement.

It has gotten just too hot to continue working on Lorrie today. It's already 93 degrees here. Hottest day so far this year.

Will reinstall the Rocker Shaft, Rocker Arms, and Pushrods tomorrow morning when it is cooler. Will then do a "cold" Valve adjustment.

Once Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six is up and running, will do a "hot" Valve adjustment.

Next on the agenda is cleaning out the Gas Tank.

It's supposed to rain here on Monday and Tuesday. But only scattered or occasional thunder showers.

Am going to be cleaning the Gas Tank out with Acetone, Lacquer Thinner, Xylol and the Lava Rocks. Then will be taking the it to the Car Wash and cleaning it out with the Pressure Wand and Detergent. Am going to then paint the Tank and Filler Tubes.

Will then have to get the PROPER Stewart Warner Fuel Level Sender and then the assembled unit will be ready to reinstall, put in NEW Gasoline, and hopefully Lorrie will start up and run properly.

Will keep you all updated on the progress.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Sunday Morning Update:

You know what I REALLY love about Lorrie? She always seems to have a NEW surprise awaiting me in order to test my patience and teach me a lesson.

Permit me to explain:

The day's agenda was to install the Rocker Shaft, Rocker Arms, Spacers, and Pushrods in Lorrie Van Haul's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine.

Got the work area all cleaned up to where it resembled a surgical procedure in an operating room.

Cleaned all the Bolts, their Curved Washers, the Rocker Shaft and all the Rocker Arms, which due to having perfectly clean oil but needed to be carefully wiped off with a lintless cloth.

Put a thin film of oil on the Valve Springs, Keepers, and at the base of each Spring, along with a dab of Grease on each of the Valve Tips.

Then decided to check to see where the Lifters were located so that the Pushrods could be placed properly.

In order to do that, had to use a flashlight to see them.

This next part comes under two headings: 1. "Anything that CAN go wrong, WILL have probably already gone wrong.", and 2. "Why can't anything be easy?"

The flashlight was subsequently shined down into the Engine where the Lifters reside, and that's when it was noticed that five of the Lifters had been pulled out of their Bores by the capillary contraction of oil on the round ends of the Pushrods when they were removed a week ago.

The Lifters were lying on their sides in the bottom of the Oil Gallery!

There was also one lifter that was sitting in its bore, just slightly cocked.

So what to do?

The first inclination was to get one of the Pushrods with which to straighten up the slightly askew Lifter and let it merely drop back down into its Bore.

But, rather than do THAT, it was decided that this was a good time to "take a step back out and look in" (MoodyBlues), take a deep breath and approach this whole situation in a calm, controlled manner!

So instead of getting out one of the Pushrods, it was decided that a pair of Chop Sticks would probably be more maneuverable, as dealing with a Lifter with a pair of Chop Sticks is not all that much different than dealing with a similar sized Shrimp, and THAT had been done before, but not with a Pushrod.

So retrieved a pair of Chop Sticks and the slightly askew Lifter went splendidly down into the Bore. One down, five to go.

Tried to pick up the next Lifter with the Chop Sticks and found that while Chop Sticks are GREAT for handling Shrimp, that they aren't all that facile when dealing with something the shape, size, and weight of a solid Lifter all lubricated with 10W 30 Motor Oil.

So what to do?

Have any of you ever heard of a "Cow Magnet"? My father raised cattle, and had a couple of Cow Magnets which he left to me.

A Cow Magnet is a very strong, 1/2" diameter magnet about 3.5" long, with rounded ends.

Their function is to be put into a cow's throat, where it is swallowed by the cow. The magnet wends its way through the cow's digestive tract and is eventually excreted in a cow patty from which it is retrieved.

The purpose for doing this is to get all the little pieces of Baling Wire that cows ingest out of the cows stomach and intestines.

It was decided that a Cow Magnet duct taped to the end of a Chop Stick would make a fine tool with which to retrieve the aforementioned Lifters.

So the Cow Magnet is now duct taped to the end of the Chop Stick and is all set to be used to fish the Lifter out of the Oil Gallery, carefully noting which Bore they came out of so that they can go back into their respective Bores.

Went out to do that, and at that VERY moment, the Sun peeked over the Roof of the House drenching the whole work area in bright, hot sunlight.

It didn't take long to realize that THEN was not the time to be doing any Lifter fishing.

So just put everything aside, came in and wrote this post.

Will be going back out in about an hour and a half to see if indeed the Lifters can be handled deftly with a Chop Stick mounted Cow Magnet.

In the meantime, think I will go have some breakfast, and maybe watch the last of PowerBlock on Spike TV.

Will let you all know what happens in our next episode of the Great Lorrie Van Haul Refurbishment Caper.

Hope you all are well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Sunday Afternoon Update II:

Got all the Lifters fished out of the Oil Gallery.

Tried to put one back into its Bore using the Cow Magnet on the Chopstick, but when the Lifter is on the Cow Magnet, it too becomes Magnetized and wants to stick to the metal around it instead of going down into it Bore.

Tried to make a Paper Funnel to hold the Lifter while it was lowered into the Bore, but the path to the Bore is not straight and the funnel wouldn't make the bend.

Have the Number 1 Intake Lifter and the Number 2 Intake and Exhaust Lifters yet to put in.

Anyone have any idea how to do this?

Oh, and there is another problem: There is no way to be able to SEE where the Numbers 1 and 2 Lifter bores are. Can't get my eyes into position to see them. This is all having to be done blind.

But then again, no one EVER said this would be easy.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor