Hey Mr. OF,
Was at the NAPA yesterday to order the NEW Alternator Regulators. They quoted a price for a Re-manufactured Alternator. And they were the ones who said to take the Alternator to Smith Auto Electric to see how much they would charge to rebuild the Alternator.

So this morning while picking up the NEW Alternator Regulators, they guys as NAPA wanted to know how much it was going to cost to rebuild the Alternator, and they were told that after testing the Alternator that the "Smith Boys" said that there was nothing wrong with it.

And they all laughed at the fact that the Alternator had failed the test at AutoZone.
NAPA doesn't test Alternators. Don't know about O'Reilly's. But the guys at AutoZone don't know anything about cars. They only know how to run the computer that tells them what and how to do what they do. They're nice enough people, but they don't work on vehicles.
Actually, there is no "key switch". Lorrie's Switches are all 'Mil-Spec" Switches.

The Start Switch is a press ON, release OFF Two Contact Switch, with Two 12 Volt Wires coming from two fuses on the Fuse Panel. One Wire feeds the Starter Solenoid, and the other Wire feeds 12 Volts to the Coil for starting.

The Run Switch is a Click On, Click OFF two contact Switch with Two 12 Volt Wires coming from two fuses on the Fuse Panel. One wire feeds the IGN Terminal of the Alternator Regulator, and the other Wire feeds 12 Volts to the IN Terminal of the Ballast Resistor.

The BATT Wire from the Alternator goes to the IN Terminal of the Ammeter, and the OUT Terminal of the Ammeter goes to the HOT side of the Fuse Panel.

The Field Wire from the Alternator is connected to the Field Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.

This can all be seen in the diagram of Lorrie's Start/Run/Charge Circuit posted on this thread earlier.

Anyway, am hoping that this will resolve the issue. Don't know what else to do.
The Tachometer was getting its power from the Run Switch as was the Fuel Gauge/Sending Circuit.

The Tachometer and Fuel Gauge are NOW getting their power through a Wire coming from a fuse on the Fuse Panel to a Toggle Switch on the Dash. When that Toggle Switch is ON, the Fuel Gauge/Sender Circuit, and the Tachometer are both getting 12 Volts.

The Tachometer hasn't worked since beginning this project.

When it was originally removed from the Dash Panel, it had a HUGE Mud Dauber Wasp's Nest on the back of it. It may be toast.
'Twill happen either this evening, or tomorrow morning.

Am kind of fatigued from being out and about this morning again. Did the grocery shopping, only to find that when check-out time came, that the store's computer system had fritzed, and they didn't know how long it would take to get it back up and running. So the milk got put back in the Dairy Case, and everything else was left in the Shopping Cart. Fortunately, there is enough to eat here for a while.

The Weather Guessers are saying we're going to have rain from Wednesday to NEXT Wednesday, and all with 90+ degree temperatures. If that REALLY happens, it's going to be a miserably muggy situation.

As far as Lorrie is concerned, everything happens when it's supposed to happen. It's useless to try and force it.

Will keep YOU updated.
For sure. YOU too.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Wednesday Morning Update:

Was up at 4:00 a.m. Couldn't sleep in anticipation of Lorrie's NEW Alternator Regulator installation this morning.

Was out with Lorrie at 7:00 a.m.

Checked the Battery Terminals with the Multi-Tester. It showed 12.07 Volts

Bolted the NEW Alternator Regulator in place and, and hooked it up.

Connected the Ground Cable to the Negative Terminal of the Battery.

Per the instructions that came with the Unit, the Engine was to be started, the lights turned on for one and a half minutes, then the Engine given some throttle and the Ammeter should show a charge.

Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine started right up.

The lights were turned on. This did NOT register on the Ammeter. Turned on the Turn Signals. They were S-L-O-W. [With the Engine and Lights turned off, the Turn Signals blink at their normal rate.]

The Lights were left ON for one and a half minutes. Then the Engine was given some throttle.

The Ammeter failed to show any any charge.

Turned the Lights OFF. Still NOTHING.

Checked the Battery with the Multi-Tester with the Engine running, and it showed 11.97 Volts. Shouldn't it be well above 13 Volts? That's what it used to do.

Shut the Engine down, and checked the Battery with the Multi-Tester, and it then showed 11.99 Volts.

The other day at the Smith Auto Electric, the tech said that the way to tell if the Alternator is charging is to, while the Engine is running, and the Alternator turning, touch the rear Hub with a wrench or screwdriver. If it "feels" magnetized, the Alternator is charging.

Did this test. It didn't feel magnetic. So the conclusion from this is that the Alternator is NOT charging. BUT it is a NEW Alternator! It has been on the Engine for hardly any run-time at all.

If whatever condition exists that is keeping the Alternator from charging, didn't mess up the OTHER Alternator, which was on the Engine for quite a while, then it is reasonable to conclude that the NEW Alternator shouldn't be messed up either.

But also noticed something else. The two OLD Alternator Regulators both show continuity between the IGN Terminal and the Case, through which the Unit is grounded. It is the same with the Field Terminal and the Case.

There is a: "WARNING... Do NOT short any terminal to ground." printed on the Alternator Regulator Case. BUT, both of these Alternator Regulators are toast. So before doing anything with either of the NEW Alternator Regulators, the IGN Terminal and the Field Terminal were checked for continuity to the Case. They BOTH showed continuity just like the OLD Alternator Regulators.

The thought also occurred that maybe there is something wrong with the Ammeter.

Have checked the Ammeter Circuit for continuity, and it has continuity from the BATT Terminal of the Alternator to the HOT Side of the Fuse Panel which Circuit goes THROUGH the Ammeter. Have checked the continuity from the BATT Terminal of the Alternator to the Positive Terminal of the Battery. It is continuity.

The thought occurred that maybe there is something wrong with the Battery, but it is NEW, and shows 12 Volts.

Asked the tech at Smith Auto Electric about this, and he said to bring it in to be tested, because the 12 Volts showing on the Multi-Tester could be just a "surface charge" (whatever THAT is).

Am at the end of my rope as to what to do next. Am just going to kind of back off, let everything cool down, and maybe someone here might snap to what the problem is. Don't know what else to do.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that Lorrie is STILL not functioning properly.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome and appreciated.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Have just chased down an overcharging problem where the cause ended up being aftermarket voltage regs, I understand your frustration.

I think you need to get clarity by simplifying and isolating. Here's what I'd do.

I'd run jumper cables from the battery to the alternator. Clip the negative to the alt frame and the positive to the alt battery terminal.

Now connect an alligator clip jumper from the positive cable to the voltage reg ignition (perhaps cut wire insulation to gain conductor access) and a second jumper from the negative jumper cable to the voltage reg casing.

By doing this, you have eliminated all wiring, grounding and other component possible issues. Its just the battery, alt, voltage reg and one wire: the alt field to voltgae reg field terminal.

Now start the car and measure the voltage across the battery terminals.
If the problem persists, the problem is in these core pieces.
If the voltage is 13+, the problem is not in these core components and start removing the "bypass wiring" in stages.
1. remove the ground between the voltage reg casing and the neg booster cable. Any voltage change? this tests whether the reg is properly grounded.
2. remove the negative booser cable (battery to alt) - Any voltage change? again this tests for grounding issues
3. Remove the positive jumper cable from the alt battery terminal but keep the connection to the voltage reg ignition terminal. (careful not to short anything). Any voltage change? this tests whether their is a problem in the wiring leading back to the battery positive terminal.
4. If voltage still is acceptable at this stage, removal of the last jumpers should recreate the problem. Now you know that the issue is in getting proper voltage to the regulator IGN terminal.

_________________
Cheers!
Al T

1. I see no ballast resistor on your START circuit. Did you remove it?

2. You've placed the AMP gage in a location which measures ALT output. I believe the factory location was measuring the last stop current, that is, current flowing to the battery after all other loads (audio, lights, heater motor, defrost, etc) had already been drained off. Example, the alt might be putting out 60 amps but after all the pre battery loads, only 5 amps is going into the battery to recharge it.

_________________
Cheers!
Al T

Hey Al T,
Thanks for the response.
Alright. Have a nice set of Jumper Cables, and can do this.
The Wire from the Run Switch is easily removed. Should it be removed?
Alright.
Alright.
Alright.
Yes.
Alright.
Alright.
Alright.
Alright.
Alright. Think this is understood, but will have to see when the actual doing of it is in progress.
The "last jumpers" being from the Positive Terminal of the Battery to the IGN Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.
Which would be in the Wiring from the Fuse Panel, to the Run Switch, to the IGN Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.

Alright, this can all be done. Am going to have to make up some "alligator clip jumpers", but there are some alligator clips here somewhere, and enough wire to make the requisite jumpers.

Thank you VERY much for the instructions.

Will get back to you ASAP with the results.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

JC I am sure glad someone else posted up, as I KNEW how to eliminate/bypass circuits but was unsure of how to word it in an understandable manner.... I will interject and confirm your thoughts tho, yes a charging circuit should show 13.8-14.3ish volts... On even a charged battery... It will/and can go somewhat higher if the battery is discharged but SHOULD slowly settle back into that range as the battery takes charge... And the "Smith Boys" did tell you a quick dirty way of seeing if the alt is charging... Most alt when charging @ full tilt will hold a wrench of size believe it or not...

Hope the day turns out to be a simple wire problem or similar and the rest of the day is a GOOD one...


Thanks AI T

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MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Hey Al T,
The Ballast Resistor is in the upper left hand corner of the Diagram (labeled BR). The Run Switch supplies 12 Volts to the IN Terminal of the Ballast Resistor. The Start Switch, supplies 12 Volts directly to the "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil ONLY while cranking.
Yes. As you can see, Lorrie's Start/Run/Charge Circuitry is NOT factory. The wiring in Lorrie was completely wasted in 1985 when her Engine was rebuilt, and all the electrical was removed and redone. It has never been a problem since then up until just recently when the NEW Stewart Warner Fuel Gauge/Sender Unit Circuitry was added.

The power to the Fuel Gauge came from tapping into the Wire FROM the Run Switch TO the IGN Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.

That has been changed. The Fuel Gauge/Sender Circuitry is NOW on its own fuse and its own switch.
At this time, the BATT Terminal of the Alternator is connected TO the IN Terminal of the Ammeter. The OUT Terminal of the Ammeter is connected TO the HOT side of the Fuse Panel.

Where would/should the IN Terminal of the Ammeter be connected to receive the "last stop current"?
Can see this, but don't know where to connect the IN Terminal of the Ammeter to measure the "left over electricity" instead of the initial supply of electricity from the Alternator's BATT Terminal.

Is there anything wrong with measuring the Alternator Output instead of the Battery Input with the Ammeter?

Other than Engine, Lights (headlights, turn signals, tail lights, license plate light, flashers, and brake lights), and Windshield Wiper Motor, Lorrie has no other accessories. No Audio, no Heater, no Defroster, no Air Conditioning, no Power Windows, no Power Seats, etc.

Anyway, am going to go hunt down the necessary Alligator Clips to make up the Alligator Clip Jumpers, and will be running the diagnostic test described in your previous post.

Again, thanks for taking the time to help on this. It is VERY much appreciated.

Will get back to you with the results ASAP

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

No

_________________
MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Hey Mr. OF,
So am I. Being at the end of my rope, was in the mode of just tying a knot and hanging on!

Had even considered calling a priest to see how much they'd charge to do an exorcism on Lorrie!
Know what you mean.
Just as was suspected. That's what Lorrie USED to do before the Fuel Gauge/Sender Unit was installed and all this present nonsense began.
Lorrie's Ammeter never got above 30. And it would only do that momentarilay right after Starting. Then it would settle down to being just barely above the middle line on the Ammeter. That's where it stays all the time NOW.
While Lorrie's Engine was running this morning, a wrench got touched to the Alternator's Rear Hub. No magnetism there. BUT... somewhere along the line, the phrase: "An Alternator NEEDS electricity to MAKE electricity!" was heard. Am assuming that THAT is what the Field Terminals on the Alternator and the Alternator Regulator is about.

BTW, when putting Lorrie's Fuse Panel together, there was one Fuse Holder that was NOT reliably making contact. It got fixed, but am not sure that the fix has stayed fixed.

Am going to check that again.

Was getting continuity on all Fuses the other day, but THAT could have been an intermittant thing.

That particular Fuse Holder is going to get closer scrutiny, and will find out exactly WHERE it goes, and WHAT it does.
Have been saying all along that "Things happen when they are supposed to happen.", and that Lorrie is all about teaching me EVERYTHING about her.

Sometimes she will NOT do something which makes it to where something else HAS to be taken care of to get her to do the ORIGINAL thing. For instance: One time she wouldn't even crank. That was because her Holley 1920 Carburetor was going to leak if she did. She KNEW that...

So that led me to get the Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor from Daniel.

And then without doing anything else, she went ahead and WOULD crank after the BSMWC was securely mounted on her Intake Manifold.
X2!

Alright, here is the skinny:

Have been on a scavenger hunt for the Alligator Clips that are here somewhere. Have not found them, but back in 2001, a friend of mine died.

He had told his family in New York that if anything happened to him, that they could get in touch with me, and that they could count on me to be their liason here.

So when he passed away, they got in touch with me and asked me to go through his stuff. All they wanted was his legal papers, his service medals (he was a former Marine), and his father's cameras (his father had been the official Harley Davidson Photographer for years and years).

They asked me to clean up his belonging and that I could do with them whatever I wanted. There was a Craftsman 42" Riding Lawn Tractor, and boxes and boxes of just "stuff".

So in looking for the Alligator Clips this afternoon, some of the boxes of his stuff was found, and in looking through them, found among other things, a BRAND NEW Voltometer Gauge!

BUT, the weather is getting ready to SEVERE Thunderstorm.

There's a Thunder Storm Cloud just to the NorthWest of here with tops at 50,000 feet altitude. It's heading this way and will pass directly over here in about an hour.

The temperature outside right now is 96 degrees, the humidity is 98%, making it feels like 110 degrees, and it is just sweltering out there.

Ms. American doesn't get taken out in the rain because her Window Gaskets are all but non-existant. So have put her under her plastic and Tarp, and will not able to get to the Hardware Store till tomorrow morning.

Will go then and get NEW Alligator Clips.

And in going over the instructions, there have arisen some questions that need to be clarified before doing the test.

Will be formulating the question and will post them AFTER the T-Storm passes, as the Computer needs to be off-line while the Storm is in progress.

BTW, this T-Storm is a weather condition that is going to be here till next Wednesday! The area is going to be under a boundary front that is moving from the NorthWest to the SouthEast right over this location for the next week.

The area can use the rain, but not the winds, and there could be tornados involved. Where I live is right on a bit of land that projects out into Lake Livingston, and the Lake kind of protects us, but still the weather is going to be SEVERE.

Anyway, nothing is going to happen with Lorrie today. But the coming week of SEVERE weather is an afternoon thing. So tomorrow morning, it will be nice. Will get out then for the Alligator Clips.

Will let you know if any progress occurs.

Hope this finds you ALL doing well.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=mopar+cha ... gDA&zoom=1

In your pic, it would be somewhere between the battery and the fuse panel

_________________
Cheers!
Al T

Hey Al T,
Hmmmmm. Right now the Out Terminal of the Ammeter IS between the Battery and the Fuse Panel.

It's just that it is the furthest away from the Battery that it can get!

Placing it anywhere between where it is and the Battery would just mean that it is closer to the Battery, not that it would be measuring the current AFTER all the Accessories have gotten their electricity.

OR maybe because it is connected to the HOT side of the Fuse Panel AFTER all the Fuses have gotten their electricity, that it is already measureing then NET instead of GROSS amount of Electricity produced by the Alternator.

Already this morning, the NEW Alternator Regulator has been installed and hooked up.

Then went to the Hardware Store and got Alligator Clips.

Got out the Battery Jumper Cables, but Mr. T, they are too unruly to use.

They would most certainly short out against something between the Battery and the Alternator.

So have made up a special set of Cables to go FROM the BATT Terminal of the Alternator TO the Positive Pole of the Battery, and FROM the Case (ground) of the Alternator TO the Negative Pole of the Battery out of 12 Gauge Wire with Alligator Clips.

But before hooking all this up, want to know: Is 12 Gauge Wire and Alligator Clips heavy enough to carry the current between the Alternator and Battery without incident?

Also made an Alligator Clip Jumper Wire to go FROM the BATT Terminal of the Alternator TO the IGN Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.

Also made an Alligator Clip Jumper Wire to go FROM the Case (ground) of the Alternator TO the Case (ground) of the Alternator Regulator.

There is already a Wire that goes FROM the Field Terminal of the Alternator TO the Field Terminal of the Alternator Regulator.

All the OTHER Wires in Lorrie's Electrical System are hooked up.

Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine will start and run.

Whether or not it will charge remains to be seen.

As soon as it is confirmed that 12 Gauge Wire and Alligator Clips are sufficient to connect the Alternator TO the Battery, the test can proceed.

If 12 Gauge Wire is insufficient to connect the Alternator TO the Battery, then will have to make some other set of Jumper Cables that can safely be used.

Right now, the only REALLY heavy Cables are the two that are connected TO the Battery.

One goes FROM the Positive Pole of the Battery TO the Starter.

The other one goes FROM the Negative Post of the Battery TO a bolt in the Bell Housing.

BTW, yesterday, installed one of the NEW Alternator Regulators, and started Lorrie's Engine. There was no charge indicated on the Ammeter.

There was also no magnetic field on the Back Hub of the Alternator.

Removed the NEW Alternator Regulator, opened its Case, and both of the Fusible Wires were still in place.

So taking the Fuel Gauge/Sender Unit out of the Start/Run/Charge Circuit at least kept the Alternator Regulator's Fusible Wire from burning up.

Still, the Alternator didn't charge.

Anyway, will await the decision on the 12 Gauge Wire Jumper Wires being sufficient to carry the current FROM the Alternator TO the Battery.

JC.

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Wait…you bought a new mechanical voltage regulator instead of the better electronic one? How come?

12ga will suit for testing purposes.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hey Daniel,
Yes. In actuality, two NEW Mechanical Alternator Regulators were acquired.
Because both of the Alternators that are here do NOT have the "Field 2" Terminals necessary to go with "the better electronic" Alternator Regulator.

Am hoping that the Alternator that is presently installed in Lorrie is good.

AutoZone Tested the one WAS in Lorrie on their Alternator Test Machine and it FAILED.

Then later Smith Auto Electric tested the SAME Alternator, and pronounced it to be functional, putting out 14+ Volts at 65 Amps.
GREAT!

Thanks for the response and information Daniel.

Will be updating on the test results.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

I meant the better electronic regulators designed and made especially for use with the single-field alternators. NAPA Echlin VR-1001, Standard Ignition VR-128, etc.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hey Daniel,
Was unaware of the referenced units.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor