OK
This may be the blind leading the blind here ,but here goes.
you dont know what camshaft you have so we dont know what the valve timing events are exactly.

So turning the crankshaft clockwise only(to avoid chain slack)write down the following.
Degrees at which intake is opening at 0.050"
Degrees at which intake is closing at 0.050"
the degrees exactly half way between these two is the intake lobe centreline.
Do the the same thing s for the exhaust.
When you know the lobe centrelines in degrees ,then the valve overlap event(when the exhaust valve and intake valve are slightly open)should be exactly half way between the Int & Ex lobe centre line angles.
the overlap event at piston TDC will give a cam at 0*
You retard or advance the cam from there.
I hope this helps
Brendan.

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

It's the original camshaft that was in it. I just did a basic overhaul on the engine. The only reason I'm degreeing it is because others were recommending it. The engine is at my workplace so I'll go up there shortly and get those measurements. This degreeing the cam thing has been extremely confusing to me for some reason. Can you check back in in a couple hours in case I'm still struggling with it?
Thanks for the help.

Sure ,but please understand I am new to all this camshaft business myself.
My info may be worth s#!t.
By the way .if the overlap centreline is not at 0*(TDC) then the amount it is off ,is the amount of degrees your camshaft is advanced / retarded .
Basically an advanced camshaft moves your torque curve lower in the revs,a retarded cam moves the torque curve higher ,generally speaking.
Would some one please correct any BS I am feeding this guy.
We still dont know your name.
Brendan.
PS see if you can get some #numbers off the camshaft,it should help,they may be on the rear of the cam!

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

Sorry, it's Nick.

Also, you know more than me right now but if we're wrong, hopefully someone will correct us.

Alright, I'm going to include my actual measures to confirm I have my math right.

INTAKE: @ .050" opening = 4 degrees left of the TDC mark on my degree wheel.
@ .050" closing = 100 degrees left of the TDC mark
So the intake lobe centerline should be 48 degrees left of the TDC mark.

Exhaust: @ .050" opening = 107 degrees right of the TDC mark
@ .050" closing = 5 right of the TDC mark
And the exhaust lobe centerline should be 51 degrees right of the TDC mark.

There could be a fraction of a degree error. Either way it puts the center of those two measurements a degree or two to the right of TDC. Sound right?

Do these numbers mean the camshaft is close enough to being aligned with the crankshaft and will allow timing to be set later on?

Speaking of the camshaft, all that I know is that it is the original camshaft for a '65 Plymouth. I already have the camshaft in the block but if it is really important, I'll pull it back out.

Thanks again for the help and let know what you think.

just to let you know... lefts and rights of tdc is the wrong way of saying it, i suppose it works, but its alot easier to use correct terms.

on a motor that spins clockwise (most motors)
RIGHT OF timing mark = BTDC (before)
LEFT OF timing mark = ATDC (after)

opposite of a motor that spins counter clockwise (corvair)

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... ht=#322691

there is my write up on degreeing. have something to compare your methods to

Hmmmm.
Ok Nick.

the valve open duration numbers you have dont look right.
Open valve durations @0.050 are usually between about 180*-270* roughly.
perhaps you measured the valve closed events??
OR counted the degrees open wrong!?
Confused yet ?Me too.(':shrug:')
We can probably use the numbers in your first post if they are accurate.
54* left of TDC & 62* right of TDC = (Lobe Seperation Angle)116*/2 = 58*
so 58* from either side will put you 4*BTDC
In other words the valve overlap event happens at 4* BTDC.
I believe that should be fine.

Can somebody confirm?


I edited this post several times cause I was making it harder than need be.Your measurements above are the easiest way.
My 0.050" method is a bit more complicated but probably a little more accurate.It will also give duration however.
Now my brain hurts.
Sorry if I caused any confusion,I was just tryin to be super accurate.
Brendan.

PS Looking at those duration numbers again from your first post,If they are correct,you have a very very small cam ,or your cam is really worn.
Somethins not right there!!

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

Here is a link to some cam grinds including stock ones I believe.
as you can see the smallest has a duration of 180* at 0.050"
http://www.hal-pc.org/~bwhitejr/Slant_Six_Cams.pdf
Brendan
Those lifters you pulled out.
put a straight edge up against the cam lobe face.
and hold em up to a light.
If just one of these lifter faces is a little hollow,that means the lifter was probably not spinning on the cam lobe,and wiped the hardening off the cam lobe!!New cam time.
Look at the cam lobes and see if they look worn.
They should be nice and shiny all the way across them.
If they have any dull blueish grey areas ,especially on the lobe tip edges,Its new cam time.
Dude ,Its new cam o`clock.
Brendan

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

Well, that's worrying. I noticed that when I did my measurements yesterday, they were a little different from my original measurements. Just to be safe, I re-verified TDC and had to move the degree wheel a little.
As far as measuring the lobes, I thought that measuring as the lifter was being pushed up by the cam was the valve opening... since the lifter pushes up on a push rod that in turn pushes up on the rocker arm and that pushes down in the valve. Also, the first lifter at the front of the engine is the exhaust while the next one back is the intake. It's this correct?
Okay, let me check back over everything and also check out kielbasa's link and see if I can get this situated. I'm really hoping the cam is good, but knowing my luck with this engine thus far, I wouldn't be surprised. I'll post again shortly and with my new findings.
Honestly, I've never had this much of an annoyance with an automobile in my life... and I use to work on British cars!

I’m just following along here; don’t forget that when measuring lobe lift directly from top of lifter, that distance has to be multiplied by stock /6 rocker ratio of 1.5 to arrive at valve opening less stock intake lash of 0.010â€￾.

So using your numbers; intake measured 0.261â€￾of lift. 0.261â€￾x 1.5= 0.381.5â€￾ less lash of 0.010â€￾= 0.371.5â€￾

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Yep you have it all correct. just checking



The problem as it appears to me is the , apparent open valve duration .
It just does not seem anywhere near long enough.

WJAJR ,I hope you are enjoying the cheap entertainment!!
Do the numbers we came up with for the cam look ok.
We need an expert here!!
I am only new to all this cam stuff, just tryin to help the guy out.


I had not even thought of the rocker ratio ,too focused on degrees. The lift numbers look better with the ratio in.thanks for that.
Anyway i think a cam inspection may be in order.
Good luck Nick.
Brendan

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

Interesting.

Nick ,I was just going through some of your very first posts on this website.
I notice you had a knocking noise coming from the engine that you could not quite locate.
that noise was probably your camshaft.
I will tell you why I think that.
In march last year I bought a 1963 AP5 valiant. 225 with 904.
Body in decent shape ,just needed some rust cut out ,which I fixed.
Anyway,on inspecting the car it ran great. smooth engine just a slight miss.
I could not take it for a test drive ,so I ran it for 5 minutes.

When i got it home and let the engine really warm up ,I heard ...........knock,......knock,knock.knock.
Did not sound like bearing noise to me ,was not consistant enough ,and only
made the noise at idle and just above.
So after searching for the noise with a stethoscope and asking questions of a local engine builder,I decided to pull out the engine.

Camshaft was cactus, at least 2 lifters were hollow and the corresponding cam lobes worn ,one badly.
I asked the engine builder if this could be the source of the noise,yes was the reply.
So dont put the thing back together until you check the cam.
Imagine going through all this ,only to find the noise still there!

_________________
1963 AP5 Valiant 225 PB 904 Stock except extractors & 2 1/4 inch exhaust.


1962 S series valiant 225 PB auto. factory every thing. Full restoration job.
Currently on hold till AP5 is on the road.

That's a good thought Brendan but an engine builder friend of mine looked at the cam and said that it looked good. Apparently the knocking was a cross between shattered rings and/ or bad wrist pins. However, I never measured the lobes. I guess that's what I'm doing now. I will take a better look at my lifters to see if there are any unusual wear. If there is or the numbers aren't right, I'll replace the cam.

WJAJR, are the numbers you came up with within specs? I've got an old repair manual and have searched the web but I haven't been able to find the numbers. I wish I just had some numbers to compare to or someone can tell me if my measurements are good so I can get this engine reassembled. My poor Belvedere has been sitting in a shed for way too long.

I just examined the lifters and they are in great shape with completely level bottoms. It's a shame that I let them fall out of the engine and couldn't properly mark them because they are in really good usable condition…possibly replaced at one time.

So that just leaves me with a bunch of numbers that I still don't know about. I just need to know if my measurements are good or not.

If my measurements are weird, I'll try re-measuring everything to see if I'm still coming up with the same numbers.

I'm not trying to rush this project but tonight would be a really great time to finish assembling this engine.

Please help, an engineless Mopar is a horrible thing!

Lifters are not suppose to be flat. They need a very subtile convex shape. If that's what you ment by "level bottoms"