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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:32 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm
Posts: 759
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Quote:
What questions do you still need answered?

I can tell you that if you put oil in at the sending unit location and didn't destroy the anti-drainback valve in the oil filter there will be little oil going from your tank backward into the filter.

If the engine was assembled with the right parts (grooved rear cam journal) and the rear cam bearing is installed properly (you can only see this with the camshaft out) oil would have filled the rocker shaft when the oil tank pressurized the engine.

The head gasket can't be installed incorrectly without it being painfully obvious.

This thread is frustrating to me. You state that you should have done this build yourself yet show serious gaps in your understanding of slant six architecture.
Thanks for the response, to clarify I am also capable of practicing medicine or law but of course I would have ready myself before attempting.


I have quite a bit of experience with things mechanical but I certainly do not know it all and have little specific experience with the internals of a slant six engine. I hope that is clearer


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 Post subject: Clarify...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:27 pm
Posts: 9760
Location: Salem, OR
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Quote:
The cam should have come grooved in the rear most bearing point but sometimes they do not ( for an un-known reason too me )
Since the blank suppliers are not 100% concerned about this engine (not being rebuilt in vast quantities like the chevy small block), volume and demand for blanks is not that great...the hydro cam blank is just like a mechanical blank except that the rear journal is grooved but the metering holes are not drilled...since quality control has gone downhill with most of this work being done out of country you can get any of the following issues with camshafts on new blanks these days:

1) oil pump/distributor gear not hobbed/cut correctly
2) oil holes not drilled in correct alignment(mech cam only)
3) oil holes not drilled through to intersect each other (mech cam only)
4) rear journal not grooved (hydro cam issue)
5) rear journal grooved and drilled (obviously used a mech blank for a hydro grind...no problems for the hydro cam user...causes excessive oiling for the mech cam user though).

I've seen all 5 issues in the last 8 years of rebuilding slants.

Basically at this point when your machinist shows up, you will pull the head and the timing cover/chain and then pull the lifters and cam and see if the cam has a grooved rear journal, or if the cam bearings were installed in the wrong order or the holes not 'clocked' correctly...if those are correct, the next order of business would be to see if the groove in the rear journal is lined up with the oil holes in the cam bearing...if all is good there, the pump become suspect I have had a few new melling oil pump failures in the last few years and that is just a crap shoot if you got a good one or not...

-D.Idiot


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:56 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13031
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Quote:
I do not see how I can be mistaken in that the hole that feeds oil into the rocker shaft that is down in the head also mingles with that head bolt......I know you know this much better than I do though so again I will have a look at that spare head and see where or why I am mistaken. Thanks
Flip the head over so it is bottom up. Now find the little hole at the back of the head. Run a pipe cleaner through it and watch if it intersect the rear outboard head bolt hole before popping out of the rocker shaft bolt hole.

Think about it. If the oil gallery passed through that head bolt hole, then you would absolutely need some kind of gasket or other positive seal around the bolt head or you could loose all oil pressure due to a loose head bolt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:08 am 
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SL6 Racer & Moderator
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
Posts: 8657
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
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Jehosofat!!!!!!! Why is everyone considering the hard stuff first. At this point, it has not been verified that the oil pump is suppling oil. That is so easy to check. I have not worked on a slant truck in many years, but I think the pan and the oil pump can be removed easily with the engine still installed. Verify the pump is pumping. If not pull the pump and/or pan to check the pump, and/or the pickup tube.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:43 am 
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SL6 Racer & Moderator
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
Posts: 8657
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
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Quote:

The oil passage does not go through any head bolt passage. The oil passage is completely independent of any head bolt passage.
Not true. I can't say about the 82 up heads, as I have never seen one. On the solid lifter engines the oil passage for the valve train intersects the pasenger side rear head bolt hole in the head. The oil does not travel up the head bolt hole, but around the head bolt and continues thru the oil passage to the rocker shaft stand.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:10 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13031
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Really? Now I have to go check the spare heads I have in the garage. :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 8603
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
I have an 85 truck head in the garage if you need me to check it too?

Rick

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:43 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm
Posts: 759
Car Model:
Quote:
Quote:
I do not see how I can be mistaken in that the hole that feeds oil into the rocker shaft that is down in the head also mingles with that head bolt......I know you know this much better than I do though so again I will have a look at that spare head and see where or why I am mistaken. Thanks
Flip the head over so it is bottom up. Now find the little hole at the back of the head. Run a pipe cleaner through it and watch if it intersect the rear outboard head bolt hole before popping out of the rocker shaft bolt hole.

Think about it. If the oil gallery passed through that head bolt hole, then you would absolutely need some kind of gasket or other positive seal around the bolt head or you could loose all oil pressure due to a loose head bolt.
Respectfully this is what I did to know that the head bolt intersected with the oil hole. Thats why I was stumped.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:45 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm
Posts: 759
Car Model:
Quote:
Jehosofat!!!!!!! Why is everyone considering the hard stuff first. At this point, it has not been verified that the oil pump is suppling oil. That is so easy to check. I have not worked on a slant truck in many years, but I think the pan and the oil pump can be removed easily with the engine still installed. Verify the pump is pumping. If not pull the pump and/or pan to check the pump, and/or the pickup tube.
Too be honest this is prob. the issue, simple fix I hope but again I cant breath on this thing until the guy that assembled comes too look at it, there are a couple of guys here at the shop that would love nothing more than too tell the machinest I had continued to screw with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
Charlie,

50 minutes after the first post I replied and asked if he'd pulled the oil filter to check pump delivery. Never happened from everything I read.

I'm afraid I don't have anything nice to say so I will say no more.

_________________
Joshua


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 Post subject: Re: Clarify...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:55 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm
Posts: 759
Car Model:
Quote:
Quote:
The cam should have come grooved in the rear most bearing point but sometimes they do not ( for an un-known reason too me )
Since the blank suppliers are not 100% concerned about this engine (not being rebuilt in vast quantities like the chevy small block), volume and demand for blanks is not that great...the hydro cam blank is just like a mechanical blank except that the rear journal is grooved but the metering holes are not drilled...since quality control has gone downhill with most of this work being done out of country you can get any of the following issues with camshafts on new blanks these days:

1) oil pump/distributor gear not hobbed/cut correctly
2) oil holes not drilled in correct alignment(mech cam only)
3) oil holes not drilled through to intersect each other (mech cam only)
4) rear journal not grooved (hydro cam issue)
5) rear journal grooved and drilled (obviously used a mech blank for a hydro grind...no problems for the hydro cam user...causes excessive oiling for the mech cam user though).

I've seen all 5 issues in the last 8 years of rebuilding slants.

Basically at this point when your machinist shows up, you will pull the head and the timing cover/chain and then pull the lifters and cam and see if the cam has a grooved rear journal, or if the cam bearings were installed in the wrong order or the holes not 'clocked' correctly...if those are correct, the next order of business would be to see if the groove in the rear journal is lined up with the oil holes in the cam bearing...if all is good there, the pump become suspect I have had a few new melling oil pump failures in the last few years and that is just a crap shoot if you got a good one or not...

-D.Idiot
Im gonna give the guy till the end of the week before I start raising hell. Its one of those deals where I might end up saying I should have put my foot in my mouth cause Id end up making things harder for myself down the road if another problem pops up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 4:48 pm
Posts: 5835
Location: Burton BC canada
Car Model:
Just pull the filter as has been suggested. Your combination of inaction and speculation is frustrating the very people you may need down the road.

If you dont want to take some obvious and already suggested remedies then I suggest you stop posting until you have something concrete to add or ask.

_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:50 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13031
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I do not see how I can be mistaken in that the hole that feeds oil into the rocker shaft that is down in the head also mingles with that head bolt......I know you know this much better than I do though so again I will have a look at that spare head and see where or why I am mistaken. Thanks
Flip the head over so it is bottom up. Now find the little hole at the back of the head. Run a pipe cleaner through it and watch if it intersect the rear outboard head bolt hole before popping out of the rocker shaft bolt hole.

Think about it. If the oil gallery passed through that head bolt hole, then you would absolutely need some kind of gasket or other positive seal around the bolt head or you could loose all oil pressure due to a loose head bolt.
Respectfully this is what I did to know that the head bolt intersected with the oil hole. Thats why I was stumped.
In my nearly 20 years of slant six wrenching I have never actually run a pipe cleaner up that hole to trace where it goes. I stand corrected and apologize for the incorrect information.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:00 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm
Posts: 759
Car Model:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Flip the head over so it is bottom up. Now find the little hole at the back of the head. Run a pipe cleaner through it and watch if it intersect the rear outboard head bolt hole before popping out of the rocker shaft bolt hole.

Think about it. If the oil gallery passed through that head bolt hole, then you would absolutely need some kind of gasket or other positive seal around the bolt head or you could loose all oil pressure due to a loose head bolt.
Respectfully this is what I did to know that the head bolt intersected with the oil hole. Thats why I was stumped.
In my nearly 20 years of slant six wrenching I have never actually run a pipe cleaner up that hole to trace where it goes. I stand corrected and apologize for the incorrect information.
Well I guess that confirms you are indeed human :)


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