Hey All,
Well, there is something REALLY fishy going on with Lorrie's Oil Capacity. Permit me to describe it and maybe someone will have an explanation.

Took a brown shopping bag out, pulled Lorrie's Dip Stick, laid it on the shopping bag and got a stain. Marked the end of the Dip Stick on the bag at one end of the stain. Made another mark where the stain ended. Marked the bag where the "Add One Quart" mark is on the Dip Stick and another mark where the "Full" mark is. The stain shows that it is right at the "Add One Quart" mark. Going by this, Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine NEEDS another quart of 10W30 Valvoline to bring it up to "Full". RIGHT?

Well, here's what's fishy about this. It has taken seven quarts of 10W30 Valvoline just to get the level up to the "Add One Quart" mark!!!

Not believing my eyes, I did the following: Got a piece of Friction Tape and taped Lorrie's Dip Stick to the OUTSIDE of the Dip Stick Tube in the same place it would be if it were INSIDE the Dip Stick Tube. Then got under Lorrie to see where the tip of the Dip Stick was in relation to the bottom of the Oil Pan. It is right down to within a 1/4" of the bottom of the Oil Pan.

Adding another quart of Oil would bring the level in the Oil Pan up to just below the Front Gasket Level, which is where it seems that it would be reasonable to assume it SHOULD be. BUT, if I do that, Lorrie will have EIGHT quarts of Oil in her Engine.

The Capacity Chart on the 225 Slant Six Engine says: Four Quarts without a Filter. Five quarts with a Filter.

Well, Lorrie doesn't have a regular, pleated-paper filter. And the Frantz Oil Cleaner System doesn't fill up with Oil. Just the Filter Element get saturated. And a roll of bathroom tissue isn't going to soak up two or three quarts of Oil!

Now there ARE two 1/4" Hydraulic Hoses involved. They are both about 24" long. But they too, don't hold Oil. When the Engine isn't running, they empty back into the Engine. One into the Oil Pump and the other into the Oil Pan.

When the Valve Cover was off, the volume above the Lifters was empty, so Oil is not getting trapped there.

So the QUESTION is: Where is the SEVEN quarts of Oil? And if another quart was added, it would bring the level up to the "Full" mark on the Dip Stick.

Am I to believe that there is about 5" of Oil in the bottom of the Oil Pan and that it takes EIGHT quarts to reach that level?

There are absolutely no leaks. The Oil level is NOT above any of the Gasket interstices.

The only thing that I can think of is that Lorrie MIGHT have a HUGE Oil Pan as part of her being a United States Postal Service vehicle. Is THAT possible?

I have always kept Lorrie's Oil level at the "Full" mark. But her having a Frantz Oil Cleaner System on her Engine, have never had to take out what Oil was in the Engine and then put a full supply of Oil back in. This is the first time that this issue has arisen in my mind.

Again, is it reasonable to believe that it is going to take EIGHT quarts of Oil to get the level up to the "Full" mark?

I am boggled!

Whaddaya think?

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

My thoughts:

(1) The Frantz oil filter elements is retaining more oil and for longer than would a stock paper element filter. The toilet paper sucks up more oil and holds it longer after shutdown, so you may have to wait a few minutes for the oil to truly all empty back into the sump.

(2) The stock oil pump usually has a standpipe that sticks up in the middle of the filter. This standpipe prevents some of the oil in the filter from draining back when the motor is shut off.

(3) Good quality filters also have an anti-drainback valve in ten to prevent drain back on shutoff.

(4) 48 inches of hose will hold a substantial amount of oil. If the hoses aren't above the oil pump then they won't drain back into the sump.

I have never seen the Frantz oil lifter system you describe, but I strongly suspect that there is an adapter plate that screws on to what would usually be the oil filter mount pad on the oil pump and that uses what would normally be the threaded hole for the standpipe as a bolt hole for the Frantz system adapter. I also suspect that the Frantz filter does not have an anti-drainback valve and that the toilet paper roll will retain more oil temporarily on shutoff than a stock filter would. THis means that (a) your filter is holding more oil than a stock one when the motor shuts off, and (b) more oil will drain back into the sump eventually than would with a stock filter.

If you have the energy and are concerned enough, use some gaining wire or an old coat hanger and rig up a system to hold as much of the oil filter hoses above the oil pump as possible. Run the engine until it is good and warm, then shut it off. Check the oil level ten seconds after shutoff, then check it again five minutes after shutoff. Compare the results and let us know.

Again, I have no experience with the Frantz oil filter system, so I could be totally wrong on this.

(5) Lorrie almost certainly has a truck oil pan, which did have a one or two quart more capacity over a car oil pan.

Hey Reed,
The bathroom tissue holds right at a pint of Oil when saturated. When changing elements it takes a pint to bring the oil level back to the "Full" mark on the Dip Stick.
In actuality, unless one removes the Canister, the Oil in the Hydraulic Hoses is held in place by the vacuum in the Canister. When changing Elements, it is best to wait till in the morning when the System is cool.
THAT Stand Pipe is replaced by a similar arrangement in the Frantz Canister.
The Frantz doesn't have anything like that. Oil from the Stand Pipe in the Cannister is held in place by the vacuum in the top of the Frantz Canister. If one removes the Canister, the Stand Pipe is full, but because there is no longer a vacuum in the Canister, the Oil will then drain back into the Oil Pump. That's how the Oil Pump was primed on Monday. Oil was poured into the Stand Pipe and then air pressure was applied and it went down into the Oil Pump.
The Hydraulic Hose between the Oil Pump output and the Frantz inlet is full by dint of it being held there by the vacuum in the Frantz Canister. The other Hydraulic Hose returns to a Hollow Bolt in the Oil Pan at what would be just above the "Full" Oil level.
This is correct.
You are correct in principle, though it is somewhat more complex that THAT.
As mentioned previously, the drain-back is impeded by the vacuum in the Canister.
As mentioned previously, it holds about a pint of Oil at all times.
Right.
No. Unless one removes the Canister, the Oil in the Frantz System stays were it is because it can't drain due to the vacuum.
Both of the hoses are ABOVE the Oil Pump and the Return Port in the Oil Pan.
You have the concept of the System correct. The nuances of the equipment are subtle.
The Dodge Van Manual specifies 4 quarts without a filter. 5 quarts with a filter. And if the Truck Oil Pan adds two quarts, that would be 7 quarts. AND, Lorrie is going to get an eighth quart to bring the Oil Level up to the "Full" Mark.

Have had Lorrie for 39 years and this is the first time that I've even thought about all this. Was just kind of AMAZED at the thought of Lorrie needing eight quarts of Oil to be "Full".

Just got back from being out and about. Had blood drawn at the NEW local clinic. Results will be in on Friday.

Checked on the P.O.Box.

Anyway, Lorrie is the happiest she has been since she was gotten back up and running in October 2012. She starts right up, even when it is really cold. She drives smoothly. She accelerates smartly. And NOW if she doesn't think up something exotic to have go wrong, am thinking she will be fine for a long time.

We will see.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hmmm. I know nothing about the Frantz system, so I only have one last possibly relevant point- the factory system assumes a certain amount of drainback when the motor is shut off. So if the Frantz system essentially vapor locks the oil up in the filter and doesn't permit it to drain back to the sump, then you may be seeing artificially low readings until you break the vacuum in the Frantz filter and allow it and the hoses to drain.

My two cents. :shrug:


http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html

The oil in the hoses works out to

1/2 ID @ 48" = 5 oz
5/8 ID = 8 oz
3/4 ID = 12 oz

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

I would disconnect the whole TP filter,refit the proper standpipe to the engine oil filter and THEN see what it does.you are then starting with a known point,then reconnect the TP filter if you must,and see if there is any difference. I really don't see how vacuum can hold the filter full for any length of time,sure,it may slow down the drain back,but it will eventually leak down ,back through the oil pump,bearings, as well as the return to sump line ( (I assume its above the oil level in the sump),remember,you no longer have a standpipe on the normal filter either by the sounds of it,so that's going to let the main filter drain back as well. The factory fitted a standpipe to prevent drain back of the filter for a reason,they didn't rely on vacuum.
Wait....did I read that the engine does NOT have any other form of oil filter? I saw mention it does NOT have a conventional pleated paper filter,is the TP filter the only filter you have?

Hey Reed,
The thought occurs to me that I should maybe do a photo-shoot of the Frantz Oil Cleaner System just to make everyone aware of what it looks like and an explanation of how it works. Not a "promotion" of it, you understand, because there is some amount of resistance to the idea of using "toilet paper" as a filter on an automobile Engine, but more to make it a "known" quantity when it comes to discussing it.
Worth its weight in GOLD to me!
Didn't look at this yet, but will later.

Nonetheless, Lorrie and I were out and about yesterday for an hour or so. Reed, this is the SMOOTHEST operating she has EVER done. There was only one "glitch", and it happened twice, so it's something that needs attending to, but after sitting at a stoplight, when it changes, and Lorrie's Acceleration Pedal is pushed, there is a momentary hesitation, like the Engine wants to quit, but then it "catches" and she takes right off.

Something to do with the Accelerator Pump in the Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor?

What to do to fix that?

Have noticed that with the Hot Idle Screw set where it is, that when Lorrie is put into Reverse from either Park or Neutral, that there is a decided "clunk" in the Differential. Am thinking that turning the Hot Idle screw DOWN a bit would help, but then that MIGHT exacerbate the hesitation when pulling away from a stop. All things considered, Lorrie is presently completely serviceable, even with these SMALL idiosyncrasies.

Seeing as to how the weather is supposed to warm up and just be a GORGEOUS day. And because everything is caught up around here transportation-wise, am going to take the opportunity to be completely clean Lorrie out today, and maybe whisk-broom or even Shop Vacuum her out.

Then get out the Digital Camera and shoot some JPGS of the Frantz System.

Hope you have a GREAT day.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. E,
Both of the Hydraulic Hoses are 1/4" ID. So we're talking 2.5 ounces?

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

1/4 ID @ 48" = 1.31 oz

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Hey Mr. SS,
Alas, when my father installed the Frantz Oil Cleaner System, he didn't give me the Stand Pipe.
After thirty-nine years of having the FOCS on the Engine, it seems to be completely alright. What has become an issue is the quantity of knowledge that I have about it. We're not talking about a problem with the System. We're talking about a problem with how much I know about the System.
The only thing that would drain the Oil that is saturating the Bathroom Tissue roll is gravity. and gravity is just not strong enough to "suck" the Oil out of the Tissue and back into the Engine. AND, the oil in the Frantz Stand Pipe can't drain back into the Oil Pump because of there not being any air available to it until the Canister is removed. When the Canister is removed, the Oil pretty quickly is pulled by gravity back into the Oil Pump. Am going to shoot some JPGs of this situation. That might help in understanding what is happening.
Yes, the ENTIRE Frantz System (Hoses, Canister, Base, and etc.) are ALL above the Oil Level in the Oil Pan. But the ENTIRE Frantz System is a pretty "solid" assembly when all buttoned up. No air is able to get past the Oil saturated Filter Element to relieve the vacuum in the Frantz Stand Pipe until the Canister is removed. You'll see in the JPGs that will be posted.
Don't think so.
As mentioned previously, Frantz ALSO has a Stand Pipe arrangement, and it DOES rely on the vacuum to prevent "drain-back".
Yes. The FOCS is the ONLY filtration system on Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine.
Yes. The Frantz Adapter, which supplies the Oil to the Frantz Unit is screwed onto the Oil Pump where the regular pleated-paper filter would normally be.

As was mentioned, the whole issue here is NOT the functionality of the FOCS. The issue is MY knowledge of the FOCS. We're going to clear THAT up presently.

Anyway, how's the temperature where YOU are? It's 25 degrees F here!

Have a GREAT day.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

+2 this AM sposse to get to 20 for high

JC-

Hesitation on acceleration is usually caused by a fault in the accelerator pump circuit on the carb, but can also be caused by a vacuum leak such as a worn throttle shaft. I believe you have mentioned that this is a NOS carb sold to you by SlantSixDan, so don't think throttle shaft wear is an issue.

The clunk when putting it in gear is typically a u-joint, but it may also be coming from the rear axle.

Those are pretty minor complaints considering Lorrie's age!

Hey Mr. E,
So there is a negligible amount of Oil in the Hydraulic Hoses.

Just went out and pulled Lorrie's Dip Stick. The Oil level is at the "Add One Quart" mark. Measured the distance between the "Add One Quart" mark and the "Full" Mark. It is 9/16".

QUESTION: how big a square 9/16" thick would it take to hold a quart of Oil?

While out there, measured Lorrie's Oil Pan's depth. It is 11-1/2" from the left Oil Pan Gasket Flange of the Engine to the bottom of the Oil Pan.

QUESTION: How does that compare with other Oil Pans?

Anyway, it's 40 degrees outside and wind out of the North at about 10 MPH. Wind chill is in the low 30s. BUT, it's supposed to warm up today and tonight, and be in the 70s here tomorrow.

Stay snug!

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. H,
Where are YOU?

Am going to be so happy when all this cold weather has passed.

The low temperatures this Winter gave the big, beautiful Philodendrons a real hit. It doesn't kill the plant, but it kills their fronds. They come back in the Spring and by next Winter they will be fine again.

They're too big to move indoors.

Am thinking of building a removable frame with Plastic Sheet and some large quilts on it next Winter and put an Oil Radiator heater in it to keep them from freezing. Will just have to wait and see how it goes.

Try to stay warm.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Reed,
It wasn't doing this before. It just started. BUT remember, it was mentioned that before all this work that was just done on Lorrie that she had taken to occasionally dying at idle? I turned the Hot Idle Screw in a turn to keep that from happening. Am going to turn it back out a bit next time we get ready to go out. Don't know if that will do anything, but that's the only change that was made to the Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor during this whole caper.
It DID come from Daniel, but don't think it was a NEW Old Stock. It was a USED unit, but in GREAT shape. Don't think that it has a vacuum leak anywhere. It most likely is the Accelerator Pump. There is a little leather "skirt" in the bore that might need replacing.
BUT Lorrie's Rear U-Joint is brand NEW.
Am thinking that THAT is the problem. BUT, when the Engine is idled down to what it was before the Hot Idle Screw was turned in to keep the Engine from occasionally dying, it wasn't doing that. It will probably go away when the Engine is idled down again. Will just have to wait and see.


And for no more use than she gets, it will probably be quite a while before anything has to actually be done to remedy the situations. If she will just continue to get me around town here to run weekly errands and to Livingston once a month for cat food at the Wal*Mart and Kitty Litter from the H.E.B. everything will be just fine.

Am wondering how long it is going to take for her to earn my complete trust? Am feeling REALLY good about how she is doing right now. Hope she continues to be reliable. Again, will just have to wait and see.

Be well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor