Hey All,
Have a strange problem, and don't know exactly what to do about it.

A little more then two years ago, Lorrie Van Haul, a 1967 Dodge P200 Postal Van was ready, after four years of refurbishment, to become my daily driver. She needed a NEW Battery, and so a $105.00 NAPA Legend 75 was obtained for her. The Legend 75 has a no questions asked seventy-five months guarantee. If for any reason it fails within seventy-five months, NAPA replaces it for free.

So Lorrie was back up and running, and though there were a few bugs that needed to be worked out, they were attended to, and Lorrie came to be her old reliable self. No matter what the temperature, all that has to be done is to depress the Accelerator once, turn on the Run Switch, hit the Start Switch, and as soon as one cylinder fires, Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine is running at a 650 RPM turbine smooth idle.

Then one day about a year after the NEW Battery was installed, Lorrie was needed to run some errands. She had been sitting for five days without being started. Went out, and Lorrie had a dead battery. It had 9.08 Volts and wouldn't crank the Engine. Got out the Battery Charger, and charged it up to where the Engine would start and we went to do our errands. Upon arriving home, the Voltage in the Battery was checked and it was up in the 12.80 Volts range. Didn't know why the battery was dead, but it seemed to be all right after being driven 50 miles.

The experience had caused concern, and so diagnostics were done. Disconnected the Ground Cable from Negative Post and put the Test Light between the Cable Fitting and the Negative Post and got no light. Put the Multi-Tester between the Positive Post and the Ground Cable Fitting and got an OPEN circuit. The conclusion was that there wasn't any kind of SHORT in Lorrie's Electrical Circuitry that would be draining the Battery.

The Voltage with the Engine running was checked. The Alternator was putting 14.80 Volts at idle and a bit more than that when revved up, but it was well within the acceptable range, never above 15 Volts.

Started checking the Battery Voltage AFTER returning from being driven, and before starting the Engine the next time, and found that it was losing .12 Volts in 24 hours. This indicated that there was some kind of drain on the Battery, but it couldn't be found.

So the next time we returned home from being out and about, checked the Voltage and it was up in the 12.70 Volts, and the Ground Cable was removed from the Negative Post. The next day, the Voltage was down about .12 Volts.

So it was off to Smith Auto Electric, where the battery was tested and found to have a bad cell. Went to NAPA and told them what had happened, and without any fuss, they replaced the battery.

That was last September. That there was a bad cell allayed my trepidations, and the practice of checking the Voltage was ended. Since then, Lorrie has been perfectly reliable up until about two weeks ago.

After sitting for five days, Lorrie's battery was dead!

Charged it up, and everything was fine. The Voltage checking program was restarted and exactly the same thing happened.

NAPA was called last Thursday, and they brought me a NEW Legend 75 Battery, no questions asked on Thursday evening. It was installed and the Voltage was checked. It was a 12.96 Volts.

Lorrie and I went out Friday morning, and upon returning home, the Voltage was checked and it was at 12.86 Volts.

Went out that evening, and it was at 12.70 Volts.

Went out this morning and it was at 12.58 Volts.

Rechecked for a short, but all tests showed OPEN circuits.

Am going to be going out today and when we get back will check the Voltage, and remove the Ground Cable.

Will check the Voltage tomorrow morning. If there is no Voltage loss, then am going to have to conclude that there is a minute drain on the Battery.

QUESTION: Is it possible for there to be a Voltage drain somewhere? And if there is, how would one go about finding it?

Any insight on this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Hope this finds you all doing well, and thanks in advance.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Lead cell batteries don't like to sit to long without being charged,
sulfation will grow on the plates and voltage will drop.
The website batteryuniversity.com says they should be charged
at least 14 hours every 4 weeks to prevent sulfation. Then the
battery will hold a full charge, 12.6 volts. The charging reverses
the sulfate and maintains full plate area.

Once a battery becomes badly sulfated it cannot be reversed with
charging.

will leaving a float charger on a battery which sits for long periods eliminate this problem of sulfation on the plates and keep the battery at a full 12.6 charge? or does the float charger just delay the process of sulfation meaning sulfation and an unserviceable battery is inevitable. thanks tons bob fisher

Hey Mr. M,
Alright.
Had suspected that something like that might have happened.
The Battery Charger that is here, has a 2 amp and a 6 amp option. Were this to be done, would charging it at 2 amps be sufficient?
Drove Lorrie to the store this morning, and when we got to there, checked, and it was at 12.96 Volts. Did the shopping and before starting the Engine checked the Battery. It was at 12.88 Volts. Drove home, and checked it and it was at 12.88 Volts. Removed the Ground Cable from the Negative Post, and checked it immediately and it was at 12.86 Volts. It lost .02 Volts just by unhooking the Cable!
Will go to the website you referenced to see what they have to say. Thanks for the reference.
Could what is happening to these batteries be the result of not driving the vehicle very much? Lorrie gets driven to the store and back a couple of times a week, and then to Livingston (thirteen miles away) about once a month. Other than that, Lorrie is just sitting in the driveway.

What is being done now is that Lorrie's battery's voltage is a 12.86 Volts. Have the Ground Cable disconnected. Am going to check tomorrow morning and see if it has lost the .12 Volts that has been the case for the past two days.

Have a suspicion that is going to get checked out. Will let you know what is found after that is done.

Anyway, thanks for the response, and the reference.

Hang in there.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

As was pointed out, 12.6 volts is what you should expect to see anyway (each cell contributes 2.1v).

A battery that has just seen higher voltage (whether from a charger or the alternator while running) will have a 'surface charge' reading somewhat above 12.6v.

This excess usually will dissipate gradually as the battery rests, which is why your voltage readings are dropping slowly back to 'normal'.

Battery load testers commonly have a carbon pile (toaster element or similar) to work the battery momentarily so that they can get a better reading of its condition.

If you are chasing a small parasitic drain, your multitester can be used on the amperage setting (assuming it has one).
Connect it in series (between one of the battery terminals and the post) so that it can measure current flow directly.
Then, assuming you have a reading, you can pull fuses one at a time and see which circuit is drawing (reading will drop when you find a suspect).

Certain devices will pull certain amps, for example an interior light left on will pull about .2 amp.

_________________
O==\=/==O

"A mechanic is Somebody."
- Jim Preston

The 0.12 drop in voltage with the battery disconnected is the normal loss of what's termed surface charge and is nothing to be concerned about. Self discharge happens more quickly at high temperatures, but it seems to me you have an intermittent drain rather than any battery problems. Disconnect the battery when the truck is at rest and my bet is that the battery doesn't go dead in sitting for a month or more.

_________________
Joshua

Hey Mr. S,
Went out this morning and checked Lorrie's battery. It was at 12.66 Volts (down from 12.86 last evening). It sat overnight with the Ground Cable disconnected to the Negative Battery Post.
Upon returning home from a journey of about three miles, it was at 12.88 Volts which went down to 12.86 when the Ground Cable was disconnected.
Alright.
The one at Smith Auto Electric seems to be a really crude unit that gets hot and smokes like mad while test is in progress. It was used on the first NAPA Legend 75 that was in Lorrie, and the diagnosis was that there was a bad cell.
Have a Radio Shack 29-Range unit, and the instruction manual tells how to do this. Am going to be going out in a bit and run the test.
Alright.
Lorrie doesn't have any of those kinds of amenities, so that is not a worry. Will let you know what is found after checking with the Multimeter.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Will keep you updated.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. JS,
Actually, the drop last evening when the Ground Cable was disconnected was only .02 Volts. But it previously had been dropping .12 Volts in 24 hours without disconnecting the Ground Cable.
It's been getting up to about 94 degrees here, but Lorrie is parked where the sun shines in the windshields, and it gets up to over 100 degrees inside her during the day.
Am suspecting that you are right. But it's really minute. Still, if it is an intermittent drain, it might have long term effects that take about a year to damage a cell in the battery. Will be doing the test with the Multimeter in a bit, and will know then if there is a small drain going on.
Depending on the results of the Multimeter test: If there IS an intermittent drain, will do whatever is necessary to remedy it. If there ISN'T an intermittent drain, will leave the Ground Cable unhooked and will check the Battery this evening and then again in the morning to see if it continues to drop below 12.6 Volts.

It might be prudent to get a Battery Cable Switch that can be flipped off when Lorrie is not in use.

There is a quick disconnect fitting on Ms. American 3.14159's Negative Post because she has a drain somewhere that I haven't been able to find. But then again, I haven't looked very hard for it, as I didn't know how to do it. That is all changing with Lorrie's problem. If this Multimeter test works out, will do the same with Ms. American.

Ms. American 3.14159 is (as you may or may not know) the only 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the World Wide Web.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Will keep you updated.

Stay cool.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Here is the result of the Great Fuse Pulling Caper:

Some months ago, Lorrie's NEW Stewart Warner Fuel Gauge Sensor and Fuel Gauge were installed per the instructions in the packages. It worked fine, but there was a special arrangement to power it that had to be made.

The way that Lorrie's Ignition is set up: There is a Push-On, Release-Off Start Switch that has its own fuse, and is connected to the Starter Solenoid. Press the Start Switch, the Starter activates. Release the Switch, the Starter deactivates.

There is a Click-On, Click-Off Run Switch with two circuits. One goes to the Big Three HEI System Control Module, and the other circuit goes to the Ignition Terminal on an Electronic Voltage Regulator.

Normally, the Fuel Gauge would be connected to the Run Switch so that the Fuel Gauge would work when Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine is running, and when the Run Switch is OFF, the Fuel Gauge would NOT be receiving any current.

Alas, the Electronic Voltage Regulator cannot have ANY circuit connected to it grounded, therefore the Fuel Gauge/Fuel Gauge Sender (being grounded) cannot be in the Run Switch Circuit.

So, have connected the Fuel Gauge/Fuel Gauge Sender to it's own Fuse on the Fuse Panel, and then to a Toggle Switch. When it is necessary to know how much fuel there is in the Tank, one flips the Toggle Switch to the ON position and reads the Gauge.

It's all straight forward. Apparently not. This has turned into a can of worms! Permit me to explain.

The instructions that came with the Stewart Warner Fuel Gauge and Fuel Gauge Sender say that the Gauge will register "something" when there is not 12 Volts going to it. They didn't say why it's that way, but that's what they said. Usually, a Gauge with no current going to it would read "Empty", but not this one!

Now, starts the REAL strangeness:

When the Toggle Switch is OFF, the Fuel Gauge reads the same as when the Toggle Switch is ON. That is, until the Needle reaches the 1/4 mark. Then with the Toggle Switch ON, it stops going down and stays at the 1/4 mark.

BUT, when the Toggle Switch is OFF, the Needle continue to go down till the Tank is empty at which time the Needle is on the "Empty" mark. And the strange thing is that the Needle is accurate with the Toggle Switch OFF, but not when the Toggle Switch is ON!

I have NO explanation for this situation, but I know it's true because one time with the Toggle Switch ON, the Needle showed 1/4 tank of Fuel. With the Toggle Switch OFF, the Needle showed "Empty" and Lorrie ran out of gas!

Also, one time the Toggle Switch was left in the ON position, and the next morning, the battery had to be charged to start Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine.

All right. With all that said, here is the report of the results from hooking up the Radio Shack Multimeter and getting a reading of 0.080, and then pulling Fuses:

The very first Fuse that was pulled was the fuse between the 12 Volt Common and the Wire going to the Toggle Switch connected to the Fuel Gauge in the OFF position. As soon as the Fuse was pulled, the reading on the Multimeter went to 0.000!

Conclusion? The Fuel Gauge is pulling 12 Volts with the Toggle Switch ON, and 0.080 Amps with the Toggle Switch OFF!

With the Fuse out of the Fuse Panel, and the Battery connected, the Fuel Gauge still reads what it did with the Fuse in the Fuse Panel.

Am going to see if the Gauge continues to register, but that will take some time because it's going to take using up the Fuel in the Tank. Am betting that the Fuel Gauge will still register correctly with no Fuse in the line just like it did with the Fuse in the line.

Eventually, will get a NEW Switch, to see if THAT may be the problem.

Comments?

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Sounds like your ON is actually OFF and vice versa. Easy to check: Disconnect the wires from the guage on/off switch and measure to see if perhaps you have 0 ohm in the OFF position and very high resistance in the ON position.

Might explain why you have that slight drain when parked... the guage switch OFF relay has the guage on; the current drain would be variable with how full or empty the tank is.

And I'll echo the comment above that you don't check battery voltage right after driving it; it will always be high. You need to let it rest a few hours to let the surface charge dissipate and then check for 12.6 or 12.7 v.

Hey Mr. NM9,
It is known for a certainty that the Toggle Switch is NOT improperly installed. BUT, it does drain the battery at an 0.080 Amp rate when off, and if let sit for four or five days, will drain the battery to the point to where it won't crank the Engine. One time the Toggle Switch was left in the ON position over night and the Battery needed to be charged before it would start Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine the next morning.
Actually, am going to go to Livingston and will obtain a NEW Toggle Switch today. Am 99.99% certain the present Toggle Switch is the culprit.
Actually, the Gauge thinks it is ON all the time because in the ON position it is getting 12 Volts. In the OFF position it is seeing 0.080 Amps. It happens to like the 0.080 Amps better than the 12 Volts because the Gauge is accurate on 0.080, but with 12 Volts, it won't register BELOW 1/4 Tank, even when the Tank is empty.
Right. Have checked the battery upon arriving home after having driven fifteen miles, and it has registered as much as 12.96 Volts. Then the next morning it will be down to 12.63 Volts.

Am hoping that a NEW Toggle Switch solves the problem. Will know tomorrow when the NEW Toggle Switch will be installed. If THAT doesn't solve the problem then there is something pretty esoteric going on!

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful response. It is much appreciated.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

One other possiblity: the toggle switch is wired in parallel with the guage and not in series; it would then bypass the power feed to the guage direct to the sender unit rather than applying the power feed to the gauge. If this was the case, that would explain why the switch being left on drained the battery overnight and why the guage does not appear to work when ON. And why the guage drains .08 A all the time when the switch is off.

Part of what you are saying does not makes sense: the .08 A current flows through a component; 12v is applied across a component's terminals. Are you up to checking some more voltages here?
- Check the voltage at the guage terminals one at a time with the red lead (and while the black lead is connected to chassis ground). Do this twice: once with the switch ON and again with the switch OFF. This will tell us what is going on.

Do you have a link to the actual S-W guage in use so we can figure how it is supposed to work?

Hey Mr. NM9,
You may be on to something here. But, the first thing that needs to be done is to check the OLD Toggle Switch for a malfunction. Have that on the agenda today. And just in the event that it proves to be the culprit, a NEW Toggle Switch was obtained from Auto Zone yesterday while Lorrie and I were in Livingston.
Fortunately, all the instruction documentation for both the Sender and the Gauge are here. That will most definitely get checked.
Yes, though instructions on how to do the checking would have to supplied as I am a dilettante at auto electrics.
Alright.
No, but will try to find one. The Gauge is a Stewart Warner 82413 Fuel Level Gauge, and on the instruction sheet, the electrical diagram Figure 3 is the configuration on the back of the Gauge, which says that Terminal A gets 12 Volts from the Battery, and Terminal B is connected to the Sender Unit in the Tank. The Ground is through the Bridge Bracket that holds the Gauge in place.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Will let you know how things go later this morning or afternoon.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

OK, found the guage and instuctions online; thanks for that. This looks to be a standard guage and sender arrangement. I can't find any info on this in the prior posts, but did you install a certain sender in the fuel tank with this guage? I ask because this model is for a specific tank sender. Yor rpoert the guage as being accurate in some modes so it may be fine but just want to have a complete picture.

Also, I would change the guage ground from the guage bezel; that is not necessarily a good ground. I would run the guage ground directly to chasis. It may not change anything.

Check the voltages as requested and that will give good info.

Hey Mr. NM9,
Don't thank me. Thank YOU for getting involved!
They were both gotten at the same time and were a matched set. Both S-W, and allegedly made for each other.
Alright.
Actually, with the way that this complete set of S-W Gauges are mounted in an Aluminum Plate, and includes an Ammeter, Temperature, Fuel Level, Oil Pressure, Speedometer, and Tachometer. The Ground for each checks perfectly.
Well, went out this morning, started Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine, and moved Lorrie over to be in the shade all day just in case this turned into an all day ordeal.

Checked the Voltage in the Battery. After having just run for less then five minutes, the Battery showed 12.86 Volts.

Disconnected the Ground Cable from the Negative Post.

Installed the Fuse in the Fuel Gauge Line.

Put the Multimeter on 10 Amps, and checked between the Ground Cable Fitting and the Negative Post. Got a reading that fluctuated between 0.078 and 0.079.

Disconnected the fittings put the Toggle Switch in the Circuit, and tested it for continuity. It tested OPEN when OFF and SHORT when ON.

Took the Wires off of it and put them on the NEW Toggle Switch. It tested OPEN when OFF and SHORT when ON.

Reconnected the Wire FROM the Fuse, and the Wire to the A Terminal of the Fuel Gauge to the Wires on the Toggle Switch.

Checked between the Ground Cable and Negative Post with the Toggle Switch OFF and got a reading of 0.000!

Reconnected the Battery, flipped the Toggle Switch to ON and got a reading that is by my reckoning about right for the amount of Fuel that is in Lorrie's Tank.

Turned the Switch to OFF and the Pointer changed positions, as the Installation Instructions says it is a "floater" (doesn't go to "EMPTY" when the power is OFF).

So the 0.080 Amp drain problem is solved so far.

Next thing to find out is if the Pointer will go to "EMPTY" now that there is absolutely no (other) current to the Gauge. If it does, GREAT! If it doesn't then we will have to continue with the diagnostics. But Lorrie won't get down to 1/4 Tank for another couple of weeks with no more than she is driven.

Thank you so very much for the help. Was hoping the culprit was the Toggle Switch because that would be the easiest thing to fix. Hopefully that's all that was wrong with it.

Will let you know in a week or two if the Pointer goes below the 1/4 mark or not.

In the meantime, Am keeping a two gallon container of gasoline in Lorrie's storage area, just in case.

Anyway, will be in touch one way or the other. Thanks again.

Take care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor