So after my fun ignition system adventures I finally got my car up and going after some liberal carb cleaner spraying. I put a new air filter on since the one on the car when I got it was pretty gross.
On the first try to start it the carb kind of seemed to spit a little? It was like the choke valve was sticking but then it things finally caught. I left the car idling for a minute or two, it seemed solid so I took it for a ride around a convenient almost 3 mile loop my work sits on. About halfway around the loop the car stalled after I shifted into first at a traffic light (fuel problem, not a transmission problem, the car shifted fine). At first it almost started back up but wouldn't catch and stay idling, and then after I got it to the side of the road it wouldn't even really do that much.

After inspecting the carb and reading through the FSM I noticed a couple things:

A) '67 170s (whether manual or automatic) were supposed to be equipped with a Carter BBS and if I'm understanding the FSM correctly there's supposed to be a dash pot installed as my car is a manual trans.

However, I have a Holley 1920 installed, without a dash pot.

Given that things were running fine for the first few weeks I had the car I'm guessing that the above swap isn't the biggest deal in the world, but I'm wondering if I should still try to find the correct carb for the car. I feel like there was a reason the carbs were differentiated, at least for the dash pot scenario so I'm leaning towards yes, but it always feels nice to check in with the gurus here.

B) If it started up and was running fine for a bit before stalling back out again, does this mean more liberal carb cleaner spraying until I can get the carb off to tear it down? I figured a rebuild was in my near future as it is, but I'd like to get the car to a better spot at least hopefully without towing it.

My first suspicion was that something was off with the linkage, but other than, on comparison to the FSM, matching up the accelerator linkage meant for the Carter with the Holley carb and the missing dash pot, nothing else really seemed amiss to me. Still, here's a photo from the linkage side of things, maybe someone else will notice something I didn't?



My second thought is the choke valve, and here's where some more questions arise, more for my own knowledge.
- Does the choke valve sit in a particular position when the car is off, when it's idling after start, and when it's warmed and the car is off? When does that positioning change, and what is it supposed to be?
I feel like I've seen it mostly closed when it's off and cold, but it seems to be a 50/50 chance of where it's landing here - that's why I thought linkage at first, something was either too tight or too loose and interfering with things, but I'm not completely sure that's the case if the valve itself is sticking. I don't see any gunk piled up on it, but when manually moving the linkage it doesn't seem like it wants to open and close easily. :stumped:

I think this is the starting point.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

That "Carter BBS for 170 and Holley 1920 for 225" thing is a very old bit of myth that has been flushing around the Slant-6 community for decades and will likely never die. It's not true. In most years between 1962 and 1969, there was a Holley 1920 and a Carter BBS for most Slant-6 vehicle configurations (170 or 225, auto or manual, with/without crankcase vent, with/without emissions control package, sometimes with/without air conditioning, etc). It's not surprising your car doesn't have its original carburetor; it's almost half a century old. The fact that it's not a BBS is not what's causing your problem; what's causing your problem is that the carburetor is faulty.
What makes you think it was like the choke valve was sticking?
Lack of a dashpot might make the car a bit jerky on deceleration in gear, but will not cause any of the problems you're having.
Honestly, no you should not. You may eventually want to find a better carb for the car, and/or carefully rebuild the one you have, but trying to hunt down the exact, specific, particular type number listed in the '67 book is going to be an expensive, long, and pointless goose chase. There are many carburetors that will work very well on your car. The one that's on it now is a later-production service replacement unit made by Holley to suit a wide range of year/model Slant-6 installations—the bolt-on rod throttle adaptor is one tipoff, as is the U-bend in the choke pushrod. That throttle adaptor is useless to you, but it's a valuable piece for owners of pre-'67 A-bodies!
It more likely means you're not going anywhere dependably in this car until you address its overdue need for serious carb attention.
Maybe, but the basic problems are in the carb itself. Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download.
With the engine cold, stepping on the accelerator should allow the choke pushrod to push the choke valve to a fully closed position, blocking off the carb's air intake. Immediately upon cold-engine startup, the choke valve should open about 1/3 of the way. As the engine warms up (and the throttle is opened, letting go of the fast-idle cam) the choke valve will gradually open to a fully-vertical position, and that's where it should stay until the engine cools down again.
Hold the throttle open and try again. The choke should move easily.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Good to know it's a myth, and nothing that is contributing to the current problems. I wasn't surprised that it wasn't *the* original carb, more concerned that it was a rather different model than what mine came with (but not surprised). As long as the mixing and matching is just a myth and nothing that affects functionality of the system, hooray!
From what I could see between the hood and the bottom edge of the windshield, it looked like the choke valve was a closed to some extent (couldn't see fully, sorry), then suddenly jumped open with a very small spray of something liquid coming up. It was only out of the corner of my eye, so I didn't get the best view. I'll try to observe better later, especially if I can rope someone into helping me.
Phenomenal. It's been a teeny bit jerky, but not too bad.
I'll rebuild first, until I have a better idea of where I want the overall track of mods (if any) to go. I'm enjoying having a rather stock (ie - non-racer) vehicle though.

In the meantime, if anybody needs that throttle adaptor, let me know..

That's fine. It needed to happen before winter anyway (as do a number of other things). Are the rebuild kits from http://www.carburetor-parts.com/ still the preferred kits, or is there something better? I need to double-check the numbers on my Holley so I can make sure I get the correct one. Reading through the tune-up post, Dan you liked Walker's kits too, then the Standard-Hygrade - current opinions?

Also thank you for the link to the manuals!
And that's what is off to me but I can't figure out why. The choke valve does move back and forth easily with the throttle open when I move it by hand. But when I'm not holding the throttle, the valve just sits at full open even off and cold, and I don't think it closed down the way it needed to when I stepped on the accelerator but I have to go back and double check.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

I have no experience with those kits. I do very much like the inlet needle-seat design supplied by Daytona Parts as their Daytona Float Valve, even though it's not actually their original idea—it was years ago called the "DF-7" valve and was supplied in Tomco kits. Might still be, don't know. One advantage of getting a NOS carb kit (such as a Tomco kit, such as off eBay) is that it will include a proper float gauge, which none of the current-production kits do; you just get a useless little paper-strip ruler. You may also need a new float, if your carb is giving indications of flooding (such as that liquid squirting you saw). Walker still offers the float.
Well! That right there could cause most of your problem. It would make a cold engine refuse to start. It would make a cold engine you eventually got started gasp, skip, stall, and refuse to restart. Sounds like you might need a replacement choke thermostat. Show us a couple pictures of your exhaust manifold, specifically the central collector area (pic taken from the front) and the top of the runner where the choke thermostat is perched atop the exhaust manifold.

If you need a bolt-on-and-go carburetor right now, you might snag this one. Yes, it's described as "remanufactured", and I usually steer strongly away from "remanufactured" carburetors, but here we're dealing with the ambiguity of that term. This one hasn't been thrown together from parts that have been through some MBA's "remanufacturing" destruction factory, it's been properly bench-rebuilt as a unit; see the seller's info here.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

If you have the patience, I have three or four Holley 1945s I am going to be going through in the next few weeks. I can't say that they are in good shape until I inspect them closer. If I check them out and get them running well, you are welcome to one for the cost of shipping. Of course, you may need to change the choke thermostat to put a Holley in place of the Carter. Dan can tell you better than I on that point.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

I'll take a look at rebuild kits tonight after I've had a chance to look at the carb number I have - work has been keeping me on my toes today with little glitches and gremlins to take care of, as well as another show to start putting up on the other stage.

Still, updates:

First, I skipped over the most important part of the fuel system. When I stalled I don't think it was the carb, it was lack of actual gasoline in the car. The gas gauge is wonky so until I have a chance to look at *that* I've been generally just filling up every couple of days. However, even though I put some gas in the tank from a gas can on Monday when I was tinkering, apparently I used it all up between trying to start the car without the carb cleaner and then on my test drive.
Happily I had stalled across the street from a gas station so after I snagged a ride to the theatre to take care of a few things there I walked back over, borrowed a gas can from the gas station (thanks, Wawa employees who see me all the time), filled it up. Got the car started (again, roughly, but I think that was just the pump struggling to get fuel at first), then filled up the tank til gas just about spilled down the side. 15.834 gallons later, the car started right up.
Quick side bar - does that make sense? According to the FSM the capacity is 18 gallons but I think maybe that last couple gallons isn't always able to be pulled through the system? Or something?

Anyhow. Before I thought of the gas thing I was checking into the way the choke valve moved and did notice that some part of the linkage inside the carb throat had been catching the valve a bit. I messed about a bit with the linkage and got the valve to not be caught behind whatever was catching it (couldn't see, can probably figure out after a tear down). Either way, it started seating correctly.

Still, I know the gaskets on the carb are going as there's been a bit of fuel seepage and I wouldn't be surprised if the float needed replacing. A good solid rebuild is definitely in the near future, though tonight I'm going to make a few adjustments whilst the car is idling to see if I can get it running a tad bit smoother.

Is another indication of flooding the bottom half of the air filter being really dark and smelling like fuel? That's how the air filter was when I got the car, and I felt like it was running a bit rich but it was hard to tell with the temps and humidity levels going into their fall spasticness.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Update!
Carburetor adjustments continue to be quite wonky. I'm gonna dig in tonight after work and see if I can't smooth them out for the time being.

Tomco rebuild kit and Walker brass float ordered today! In all my time with a slant Dan's yet to steer me wrong, so. Hoping to have them in by the end of the week so I can rebuild Monday, but we'll see.

In the meantime, some photos of said wonky carb.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Donno what you ordered, but I'll be surprised if what comes is a brass float that will fit and work in your carb. As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing. All the 1920 floats are nitrophyll.

From the photos, your choke thermostat's pushrod appears to have an improper bend in it -- that first little bend right down by the choke thermostat housing. The choke thermostat itself also looks like an old veteran; you may wind up replacing it. Also, your carb (list number 3057) was originally for a 1965 225. Its calibration and sizing are pretty close to the '67 170 carbs, so no worries there. It appears to be in un-brutalised shape, but does look like it's overdue for a thorough cleaning and rebuild.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hmm. The Tomco part number had indicated a brass float according to the catalog but it didn't come with a float anyway. The Walker catalog still listed (and lets you check out) for the part, but I got an email shortly after Dan's reply that told me the order was cancelled due to the part being discontinued. Oh well.

I am definitely going to replace the thermostat. It's served well, but it seems like it's time.

I did the cleaning and rebuild today, after having severe idling problems and an eventual stall that I couldn't come back from a few days ago - it was idling really really rough, would start to die unless I kept my foot on the gas a bit, and then even that didn't keep it alive. Idle wouldn't rise, then it stalled once and for all. I tried to get it back, but after it backfired once I decided to let it be til I could go through the carb.

Two things:
What is the tiny little hole/part just below the push-rod slot? Is that anything?

It had some stuff in it though I couldn't tell what, since it's so tiny. I tried to clean it out thinking it was a port for something or another, and did get it cleaner but I'm not sure I got everything. I'm afraid the idling problems came from running so low/out of gas that sediment got picked up and shoved into the fuel system so I was being very particular about getting even the smallest little bits out of the carb.

Also:




I can't get the idle cam to sit correctly after putting the carb back together and for the life of me I can't tell why. I did take reference photos before tearing into it in case I forgot where something went, and as far as I can tell everything is back together the way it should be. I didn't readjust any of the screws, either, though I know there will need to be adjustments made since it had been running rich since I got it (side note - any tips on good starting points?).


Other things I noticed, both vacuum lines were in poor shape and probably weren't helping things at all so I replaced both of those. Going to pick up a new thermostat as I mentioned earlier, as well as a new pull-off. Both seem to be ok for now, but I don't think either will hurt at all and will probably help.

Everything else seems to be in good shape, although there is a kind of sealant near the base that was buried under the grime. I can't really tell why, I didn't see evidence of a crack on the inside of the carb, but I thought it was interesting to keep in mind.





On the running side of things, after reinstalling the carb it I cranked the car a few times just to see if I could get it up and going but it didn't want to idle. I can't tell if that's because of the cam or the same problem I had previously.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

I don't know your carb, but it could be a fuel or air passage way.

You'll need to determine if it's supposed to be plugged up or not. (passage ways are drilled, intersect internally, and are plugged to seal off the entry point of the drill)

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

It's a Holley 1920 and that's what I'm trying to figure out but I don't have any reference to check, hence the photos. Hoping somebody here might know?

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Hi Stephanie,

Interesting problem. You might also consider a few things that are not internally carb related:

1) Fuel filter clogged and/or fuel tank full of junk and causing stalling intermittently. Put a new transparent (or translucent) plastic fuel filter and see if it plugs up.
2) Valve lash is too tight. This can cause the engine to run well while cold, but as the valves tighten while it heats up the idle gets worse and can even make the engine stall and not restart if too tight.
3) Disconnect the choke rod and wire it open after it warms up, to make sure it is not the choke flopping back and forth while warm.

All the best and happy Slanting!

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Thanks Lou
I'm off tomorrow, so I'll walk over to Autozone (it's so nice having one three blocks away) and grab a plastic fuel filter in the morning and see what things look like. I'm really suspecting I kicked some gunk up and it's been going through the system, because before that the car ran pretty well, a little rich, but I never had problems like that.
Hopefully the clear filter will give me some... insight.

Also, does anybody have any idea why the fast idle cam on my carb isn't sitting the way it's supposed to (see photos from last long post)? I'm really confused and still can't figure out what I did wrong.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

That's the correct position of the fast idle cam when the choke is closed.

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Joshua

Thanks, Josh. I didn't realise, partially I think because before the rebuild it was never fully closed.

So, updates!
Car runs, again. Sort of. I did need to adjust the idle screw in a bunch, but after I did that I was getting weird no spark sounds so I pulled the distributor cap (as I hear in my mind "back to basics" in Josh's voice with Dan's beard, since I've never heard Dan's voice). Turns out, the condenser and ground wires were loose. Who thought spade connecters were ever a good idea for something like that??

Re-connected them, started right up, went for a spin to let things warm up and put some gas in the tank. On my way back from the gas station the idle started getting worse again, backfired a couple times, and finally stalled. Pulled the cap again - the nut on the points bolt that holds the connectors in place disappeared, I'm assuming down into the distributor.

I had my old points assembly in the back seat so I stole a nut from there to get everything reconnected. Taking a small break to breathe and drink some coffee, then going back out with a wrench to tighten it down as much as I can. Did manage to adjust the idle pretty nicely though, since it finally stayed going long enough to get it up to temp.

I looked at the threads on the points and they didn't seem stripped but that worries me a lot. I don't want to put thread locker or anything on it, that doesn't seem like the best solution?
This is a set of points I snagged at Autozone so probably not the best quality to begin with. Can't tell if I should just tighten and hope, spring for another set of the same, or if there's a better set out there. Thoughts?
My brain is tired from logistical nightmares this week at work and I'm having problems making decisions.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">