(Please see my updated comment/message below timestamp:Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:55 am)

Looking for suggestions on getting a torquey 200-230 HP from a non-turbo engine. 1.1 or 1.2 CID/HP range, how difficult could that be :)

Start from scratch, what would you do? I'm looking for details, don't be shy.

What I got: 68 Barracuda, 904 auto, 7.25 axle soon to upgrade to 3:21 or 3:23 gears (I could be persuaded into 3:55). My use is driving on New England backroads & highways - no racing, burnouts, or donuts, just a good time when the weather is warmer.

UPDATE BELOW TAKEN FROM MY COMMENT (just trying to make it easier to follow and reply)

Thank you all for your replies. Apparently my ambitions are a bit out of scale for a street 225 - and that's okay; I've only had experience with V8's and I' realizing what worked for them doesn't always translate to the /6. I'm on a learning curve. So I'm dialing back my goals to the 200-230+ range hoping for some additional feedback.

The buildup matrix is great, read them all (and then some), but I was hoping for deeper details.

So here are some specific thoughts that hopefully some of you have had experience with and can lend a tip, share your story, or elaborate on. All are related to my goals of increasing streetable torque & HP.

1. 180, 185, 190, or 195 thermostat?
2. Any recommended porting tips for the goals I've stated?
3. Anyone use Holley’s 350 (0-80350) or 500 (0-80500) CFM 2bbl (lots of other sizes mentioned)? This is Holly's CFM advice, looking for verification from the group.
4. Anyone using a fan-clutch to free up some mid/upper range HP?
5. Are there any other street-performance intake recommendations other than super-six or hyper-pak or are they really the best option?
6. ECM options? Rev-N-Nator, OEM, Aftermarket?
7. Electrical upgrades?
8. General torque converter / rear gear ratio suggestions? Getting the power to the ground is missing in the Matrix.
9. Has anyone figured out the right parts mix to use beehive 340 springs?
10. Has anyone had success with anti-friction or thermal coatings?
11. Header coatings – inside and/or out for retaining heat – worth the effort for the /6?
12. I like Doc’s recommendation of using shorter rods (on the Matrix) – is this in conjunction with using a piston with the pin set lower in the skirt? Anyone else doing this? There’s likely at least a couple part options out there – anyone have a list?
13. I’m a big believer in balancing and weight-matching – anyone support/disapprove?
14. Is mixing one stock & one +size valve power-producing?
15. Lightweight pushrod options?
16. Lightweight valvetrain options? Lifters, retainers, valve locks… Is anyone measuring the weights of things? Now that would be a super Matrix!
17. Oil pan baffles - any suggestions? Anyone with experience offering the service?
18. Oil pump – Standard/Stock, High-Volume, High Pressure, or just throw the Hemi spring in it?
19. Pistons – stock, 2.2, variations?
20. Port/Port match or Gasket/Match – where are the greatest gains?
21. Reversing piston orientation - does it produce more torque for the /6?
22. Ring recommendations (material, type, gap)
23. Rotating assembly modifications?
24. RV cam – would this be a good selection for my goals? If so, RV10, RV15 or other?
25. Severe duty valves, neck-down, back-cut, nail head, tulip, or concave valves?
26. Suggested carb jet range for the street?
27. What cam specs would be optimal?
28. What timing specs would be optimal"
29. What transmission modifications work for getting the power to the ground?
30. Will a coarse intake finish with polished chamber & exhaust port benefit my goals?
31. Will a long or short runner intake work best for the street?
33. Will using upper & lower grooved bearings help with lubrication?
33. Will using a roller timing chain benefit the engine for street use?

Did I miss anything? If so, please add your comments - thanks (as always) in advance!

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'68 Barracuda - taking advice on increasing street torque, power, & road handling. Click To See It

First priority: Do a really really good head porting job with big valves.

2nd tier, but also important: Minimum 10:1 comp, big cam, high stall converter...

There is an "engine build matrix" thread somewhere that lists people's buildups and performance. I cannot find it at the moment, but hopefully someone can post a link.

Happy building!

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23314

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1976 D100

275 HP from N/A slant 6 is in full race motor territory for sure and is not going to be your "torquey", run it down to the grocery store and get some milk, driver.

You would be surprised how fast a honest 200 HP feels when a stock slant 6 is about 1/2 that.

7.25 will be toast with 275 HP unless you plan to idle around everywhere.

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!

12.70 @ 104.6

Yes, I run an 8 1/4" sure grip and my 12:1 motors that approach the 250 hp range demand it.

250 hp will require a fair amount of mods that may not last long term on the street (especially after taking 1/2" out of the guide and boss on the valves in the port...).. Given also running a larger carb to support the engine, you will quickly approach the mpg of a 360, and with the headers would not be a winter driver....

I will tell you that the best amount of fun I have had in daily driving the vehicle is as Rick said... the 10:1 build with the Erson 280/270, head mods, and a matched drivetrain allowed me to have the mpg, the fun of sport driving, and driving it to the track and back to say it's a 'street/strip' car (24 mpg highway to and from the Medford track).... that build was about 196 hp calc'd from the timeslips and drove even in the winter...would be very sporty in your lighter Barracuda...

Duster Idiot's build plus 75hp nitrous shot. Or a blower.

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Joshua

Thank you all for your replies. Apparently my ambitions are a bit out of scale for a street 225 - and that's okay; I've only had experience with V8's and I' realizing what worked for them doesn't always translate to the /6. I'm on a learning curve. So I'm dialing back my goals to the 200-230+ range hoping for some additional feedback.

The buildup matrix is great, read them all (and then some), but I was hoping for deeper details.

So here are some specific thoughts that hopefully some of you have had experience with and can lend a tip, share your story, or elaborate on. All are related to my goals of increasing streetable torque & HP.

1. 180, 185, 190, or 195 thermostat?
2. Any recommended porting tips for the goals I've stated?
3. Anyone use Holley’s 350 (0-80350) or 500 (0-80500) CFM 2bbl (lots of other sizes mentioned)? This is Holly's CFM advice, looking for verification from the group.
4. Anyone using a fan-clutch to free up some mid/upper range HP?
5. Are there any other street-performance intake recommendations other than super-six or hyper-pak or are they really the best option?
6. ECM options? Rev-N-Nator, OEM, Aftermarket?
7. Electrical upgrades?
8. General torque converter / rear gear ratio suggestions? Getting the power to the ground is missing in the Matrix.
9. Has anyone figured out the right parts mix to use beehive 340 springs?
10. Has anyone had success with anti-friction or thermal coatings?
11. Header coatings – inside and/or out for retaining heat – worth the effort for the /6?
12. I like Doc’s recommendation of using shorter rods (on the Matrix) – is this in conjunction with using a piston with the pin set lower in the skirt? Anyone else doing this? There’s likely at least a couple part options out there – anyone have a list?
13. I’m a big believer in balancing and weight-matching – anyone support/disapprove?
14. Is mixing one stock & one +size valve power-producing?
15. Lightweight pushrod options?
16. Lightweight valvetrain options? Lifters, retainers, valve locks… Is anyone measuring the weights of things? Now that would be a super Matrix!
17. Oil pan baffles - any suggestions? Anyone with experience offering the service?
18. Oil pump – Standard/Stock, High-Volume, High Pressure, or just throw the Hemi spring in it?
19. Pistons – stock, 2.2, variations?
20. Port/Port match or Gasket/Match – where are the greatest gains?
21. Reversing piston orientation - does it produce more torque for the /6?
22. Ring recommendations (material, type, gap)
23. Rotating assembly modifications?
24. RV cam – would this be a good selection for my goals? If so, RV10, RV15 or other?
25. Severe duty valves, neck-down, back-cut, nail head, tulip, or concave valves?
26. Suggested carb jet range for the street?
27. What cam specs would be optimal?
28. What timing specs would be optimal"
29. What transmission modifications work for getting the power to the ground?
30. Will a coarse intake finish with polished chamber & exhaust port benefit my goals?
31. Will a long or short runner intake work best for the street?
33. Will using upper & lower grooved bearings help with lubrication?
33. Will using a roller timing chain benefit the engine for street use?

Did I miss anything? If so, please add your comments - thanks (as always) in advance!

_________________
'68 Barracuda - taking advice on increasing street torque, power, & road handling. Click To See It

All of this is going to depend on the type of build, and some of what you have listed are only in the realm of paying the $$$ to get a bit more out of things for race and not really economical for the street... advice will differ as all of us have worked toward different goals in mind.
Just depends on the build, I use the 195 because that was stock for my engine and worked best in wintertime driving.
I would get a spare head and strip it down so you can see what's ahead of you...Once you run your fingers through the port especially at the valve guide, you'll know what to do. There are pics on here that will show you where you need to worry about possibly breaking through the water jacket. For street you just need to take out material needed to increase breathing but not wide enough to drop the port velocity and kill low rpm flow... (bowl blending will help here, there are some good books and hot rod web articles on the basics of porting). Also for street, you can polish the exhaust ports but do not do this for the intakes you need a little rough on the walls to keep the gas from puddling along the port during cold starts and weather. Unfortunately tyhe only empircal way to determine if your port job is actually working, is to have the head tested on a flow bench, then do porting and test again if you made any cfm gains in the valve lift range your cam will be.
That's not 100% right... Holley 350 (0-4778), is almost the front half of a holley 4 barrel 0-8007 390 cfm... running this or one of the staged Holley's no longer available you will make gains over stock but limited to about 170 hp due to lack of breathing... 500 cfm (0-4412) almost but needs a lot of tinker time to recalibrate for street use (and then some users have said they get a bog that they can't get rid of in one rpm range or another....

Going 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries will benefit in that it will act like the 2 barrel most of the time until demand requires the secondaries to open up and provide more fuel/air...and they only open as far as the calibration and engine load requires via vacuum settings with the springs and power valves... street choices will limit you to the Edelbrock AVS 500 cfm or Holley 390cfm... both are good choices, the Holley has more things to tinker with if you have time to dial in the last bits, the Edelbrock is mostly plug and play out of the box....
I use a 5 blade mopar clutch fan out of a 1975 Valiant...don't notice much difference in power between it and the 4 blade fan when I had my 9:1 motor in the car, but any little thing can help. Going to an electric fan can help as well, especially equipping it with a thermostatic switch like modern cars have so it only operates as needed, ad allows for faster warmup times in winter.
Your options would work like this:

Super Six = good for street and smaller carburators, BBD, 2280, Holley 2300 350 cfm

Offenhauser 4 barrel = Good for street, can be used with stock manifold if retaining manifold heat/or using dutra duals with the stock rear 3 and heat stove... works good for most 4 barrels but will be restrictive if drag racing, an not recommended for say 600 cfm Holley+

Clifford 4 barrel = OK for street, but has no provision for use with stock manifolds, was designed for use with headers, one of the better all around race manifolds, but lack of manifold heat may make cold starts and winter driving 'fun'...

Clifford HyperPak = Typically race only, can be used on the street with lots of modifications both manifold and carb can be come finicky during cold weather if some kind of heat isn't available at the plenum. Does have the fun of 'WOW' factor when opening the hood, and makes good lowend torque, and has a nice sweet spot about 4000 rpm+

Hurricane Manifolds will fall in between the clifford shorty and hyperpak on performance and ease of use on street.
Stock works fine, HEI would be better as you can get those modules over the counter anywhere... If MSD quality were better and you were racing then that might be a consideration.
If you use a Mopar EI module you will need to upgrade to an electronic voltage regulator to prevent power spikes and dips that the old pre-1970 buzz box regulators would have.
I will let someone dial in what stall is best for hipo-street... to keep your mileage you will most likely be looking at a set of 3.23's...
I think Joshua Skinner was heading in that direction for one of his builds.
These get spendy and would be something a racer would use to get the last bits out of the build... more power is gotten from porting the head than anything else...
Not really necessary, the header itself with the right cam, porting, and cam will help scavenge and gain power... once again though would become a seasonal driver if in the colder climate areas...
Doc would have to comment on this build. The logic can be argued the other way for the long rod build with the pins closer to the top of the piston, to keep the pistons from being top heavy and 'rocking' in the bores. Most likely you will never notice the difference at 2000 rpm, on the highway cruising along.
The slant is already neutral balanced, doing this as part of blueprinting with the limits of our engine won't gain much in the power department, but will make things consistent and can make the engine idle smoother... that being said when balancing the rotating assembly they will need to do it with your torque convertor.. typically if you replace the convertor later, you will have to have it balanced to the assembly.
No, our head was originally designed for the smaller 170, so getting it to breathe is most of the battle... going from the stock vales and combined with porting and the right cam, will yield benefits... but you do have to watch it as some of the larger that standard O/S valves may be close to chamber wall and become shrouded causing a 'dead spot' and decreasing the efficiency of the valve... making sure that the chamber is relieved in this area helps this and also making sure the chamber and bore line up to support the unshrouding will help (have to watch how you grind it... if it gets into the fire ring on the head gasket your will blow the gasket sooner than later...)

I wouldn't worry about this, for race I stepped up to 3/8" pushrods with thicker walls, instead of the stock 5/16" rods, to prevent flex on higher lift cams so I'm not cheated out of a any lift.. the down side to this, is unlike the stockers that will bend of something binds up, if your geometry is off... you can crack and break a rocker arm...
Most of this would fall under as needed for race, and may not be useful for street... If trying to save some weight, you can opt to go with an 80's cast crank 225, at least that will provide a 10-15 lb weight savings over the forged crank your car now... it doesn't do anything on the power side, but the lighter crank does rev a little faster after an upshift than a forged crank (more noticeable in manual tranny cars).
A few guys do this only because they are cornering hard, or launching hard enough to lift the front of the car...
Standard/stock is fine, if more is needed you can slip a small nut under the spring to shim it and bump the pressure up. because the OP gear and distributor gear all run off the cam gear, if you use a HV pump the added stress can wipe out the gear and wipe out the cam gear and your distributor gear...
It depends on the budget and build... I have had no problem going mild to 12:1 on stock Fed Mog pistons and rods... if going with 198 rods then you are using 2.2L or similar pistons...
Port match/bowl blending/ opening the restriction at the valve guide... Gasket matching can create a wide spot in the runner and cause lower flow at street rpms (and gets noticeable with a long ram manifold...LOL)
I have no experience in this, given how small our bores are compared to stroke, I don't think it will make much of a difference if it can be done...
For Hi-po street, go Moly. Compared to the iron rings, they carry a little more oil and I have never had a problem with them unless I lean the cylinder way out... this will also determine how your machinist will finish the bores...
You can lighten the crank, but this doesn't have much concern off the track, if you do it, they will add weight back in when they rebalance your crank.
If going 200-230, you are looking at going for something like the Erson RV20 270/270 cam, or the OCG 346 and 10:1 SCR/8:1 DCR... the RV Cam RV10 would be fine for a 9:1 motor and a 2 barrel or 4 barrel, but you won't make 200 hp doing it (but it will have a nice flat fat torque band across the rpm range of the engine).
You are limited on O/S valve selections matched to the 'stock' specifications, with more machining you can go with other brand
valves... if this is street, a set of 1.7/1.44 valves from SI will work fine,
they are back cut (i have a set of these with about 80K miles on them in a head that was about 50K on a 9:1 motor, then 30K on a 10:1 daily driver/racer, that head will go on another engine next year for more miles... no problems yet).
once again, it will depend on the build: Compression, Cam, etc...
Most likely you will be looking at a smallish 4 barrel tuned for best compromise of mileage and power.
To get to the 190-230 range... you are going to be looking at something in the 270/270 range with about a .460+ lift, dialed in using a DCR calculator to advance it to make about 8:1 DCR.
Timing depends on the build... and the distributor recurve... for this type of engine a super six distributor recurved to be all in mechancially for 30 degrees at 300 rpm above your highway cruise rpm works well for MPG and power.
Someone will have to recommend a stall convertor, you may also want to upgrade the A904 with a streetable shift kit and 'V-8' guts... the other weak link will be your rear end... the 7 1/4" without a sure grip unit will eventually break with all the new found power and torque.
It can't hurt, but is not 100% necessary if you are just going to drive at 2300 rpm to the next town on the highway.
Short runner will be the easiest to install and tune... long runners are not for the novice as they need some extra head scratching...
They can, but are not entirely necessary for street. My 10:1 engine had standard fed mog bearings and it ran great on the street and never had a problem winding up to 6200 rpm for drag launches.
No, but if doing a hi-po engine they will hold up longer since they are a higher quality set up, they also are generally set up when you need to degree in your cam, or can be easily altered to install the necessary bushings.

Thank you Dr. D-I!

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

DI, That's exactly the level of information I was looking for! This is invaluable to me, it answers many questions and stretches my mind. Thank you (again).

Hopefully others will share their thoughts & experiences too... (oh I pray).

Reed: I completely agree, the collective knowledge here is amazing.

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'68 Barracuda - taking advice on increasing street torque, power, & road handling. Click To See It

No problem, after a few years of building progressively more power you get the experience to know what level of mods gets you to certain levels...

I wish I knew what happened to the bottom end of my 'kermit' block, that would have been a good money and time saver for you, just add head, intake and exhaust and drop it in...I sold it to another memeber for his Dart and he hasn't been on the board in a long while.

Headwork and oversized valves are the biggest gains you can spend your money on. Followed by intake and exhaust.

Greg

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http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack

Too bad Cameron Tilley doesn't do the internet. His tips would be really useful to us all.

Roger

Yes, I agree!There are a few other notable slanters in that category!

Greg

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http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack

head work - I'm having this put on this winter. Did this last year but never had time to get it installed. I did all the porting and valve multi-angle cuts, local shop did the oversize valve install and head milling. http://www.pbase.com/spacecommander/dodge If you look at some of the pictures of the original ports - you can see how horrible they are.

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Tom
'86 Alfa Romeo Spider, red "Dinsdale"
'10 Corvette, red "" (no name yet)
'95 Ferrari 348, red "Zoom"
'04 Maserati, black "Evil"
'05 Aston Martin DB9, green "Bond, Treasury bond."
'82 Dodge W150 Power Ram, yellow "E. Valdez"