Thanks for background work, DI and others. I need to buy/borrow a cheap 10.5" fly to take a look too. I wonder how hard it would be to put the starter somewhere else, like near the low starter location...? Probably easier to mod for the location on the bell already, though.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

It helps when you have the different stock combinations and spare mock blocks handy.

I would advise against the low mount starter, as stated a long while back the low mount starter on the truck 11" clutch bell, put the starter motor
right at the steering crosslink on the 67-76 body, and I suspect this would get ugly on a pre-67... it also makes things not so swell for using long tube headers
or dual exhaust since the typical path is through the pocket by the block to bell support....on the 11" bell I routed my exhaust through the pocket in the
K-member where the sway bar brackets would bolt up.... there might be more room if using a hydro TOB and not mechanical linkage...

This conversion is worthwhile as the high mount starter would be easier to work with...my only other worry is that the QT bell is not like the stock bell,
and a clutch change would require full removal of the bell, compared to the usual proctology method through the lower access cover... so that gives kudos
for the 11" clutch bell for ease of maintenance/replacement...

Once I can get the mod done, then I will mock up and check on starter clearances with headers and dual duals when I get time to goof with this...


FYI.

I have updated the link with a few new pictures. I had to use black marking pen for the scratches/scribes
to show up in the pictures...

Looks like only one starter stud will need to move 1/2" (center to center of the stud) and the motor plate relieved about a 1/4" for the starter nose to properly fit...

That Being said... there isn't enough meat on the plate to allow the stud hole to be punched without some material to be added, or the
plate being notched at the stud hole...or worse case scenario that section is removed and the starter mounted to the bell flange and maybe use
a stock shim to keep debris out. The motor plate is 12 gauge metal (about 1/8").

The starter cone and flange on the bell will have to be relocated similarly for the 10 tooth starter to fit, which means a bit of welding with a small spacer and gusset for the cone to bell,
and a small 1/4" chuck of metal to space it properly.

Before I commit to cutting up the bell, I'm going to install the flywheel and the clutch with a spare input shaft for centering and mount the bell to see
what kind of clearance is in the bell for the larger clutch pressure plate and see if that will have impact on the bearing or the fork and mount....

Stay Tuned...

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Thanks for the legwork, DI. Interesting pics.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Check it, but the bell is essentially the same bell they use for small and big block engines so there is room for up to an 11" plate and disc. The depth of the bell, also, is the same so the TO bearing and arm will fit no better or worse than if they were bolted up to a big block, etc. The pics I posted previously are of an 11" plate and disc.

Not sure I understand the fork or bearing being a problem? Maybe I missed something. The pivot is at the back of the bell so what is the problem back there?

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!

12.70 @ 104.6

good work guys!

It seems that this Part # RM-7072 for the bell housing is no longer available.

Ryan Covalt and I tried to buy some about 3 weeks ago.
Amazon sent us both phony tracking #'s and then I called to question it and they refunded our $.

Too bad there are not more of this part Available.


Greg

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http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack

I kinda suspected they were getting rid of them when they cut the price. Some sellers still show to have them, like Speedway, though at the old high price.

Maybe....QT is planning to reintroduce them with a better starter location...(?). Doubtful but...I guess a phone call might answer that.

Speedway, Jegs, Summit and others still have a listing and show them, But when you read the details, they are shipped from Holley performance, None of those warehouse stores have them in stock.

And if the manufacturer discontinued them, well the same thing will happen if you order from one of those fine establishment too.


Greg

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http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack

Here you get the reason to check everything... Since the Holley Performance Group sucked up Standard, GP Sorenson, Mr. Gasket....
typical of corporate things get shoddy fast... most likely these last few bells were the last parts on the manufacturing floor before
corporate looked at the total units sold and said "No more." (My box came with the bell, plate and hardware...but no instructions...
I had to download and look at those off the website to see if there was any special instructions the manufacturer required...talk about
shoddy).

I updated link with 4 more pictures....

I posted a picture of the backs of a few flywheels... not everything Mopar did was typical, so it's always good to check... in my pic is a 1972, 143 Tooth
slant six flywheel, and the crank face to pressure plate face is quite a bit wider than the standard 122 tooth unit... luckily the dakota unit from face to face
is the same width as the stock slant 122 tooth unit....

My QT bell is 7 1/2" deep (without the 1/8" mounting plate), this is 1/4" deeper than the stock slant bell....but will require a little adjusting at the rear
transmission mount (If you massage the spool mount to transmission holes with a die grinder, you can get a 5/8" spacer between the bell and the
transmission face if needed to go a smidge longer...so no real big deal here.).

When I mocked it up, that 1/8" motor plate didn't leave much nub to positively mount the bell on for the 2 mounting dowels in the engine block...

Once I lined everything up just to eyeball a couple other quality control issues came up:

I posted a pic of the two fork brackets that come with the bell... none of the threaded holes match either one....oddly, two holes do
match a stock bracket from a 1975-1980 A-833OD bellhousing.

I posted a pic of the other issue where the 5.125" IBR on and A-833OD would not seat in the hole in the bell...
I don't have a hone for a bore that size, but was able to run a carborundum roll on a dremel tool around the mouth and
it was tight, might try again with another roll and see if that does it.

The other concern was the fit of the TOB in the scheme of things, and things are tight in the bell, the fingers will eventually wear in and
give a little play...but I will note that the SPEC diaphragm clutches still had a little more wiggle room for the assembly.

Two other concerns to note will occur when the assembly is in the car...which fork length will be appropriate for this assembly...
I had noted that the bigger 143 Tooth Bell needed to use a truck style clutch fork that was 1/2" longer than the stock slant fork
to keep the geometry and leverage correct for the stock linkage. (Also with that combo I had to slice about 3/4 to 1" off the end
of the Z-bar tube to allow it to fit with wider bell and keep the side clearances for the fork rod and pedal rod. The 1/2" longer fork
would be almost a No-Go for Pre-67 A-body). None of this will matter for the hydro TOB user, but I'm being frugal since I have a half
dozen sets of late A-body manual transmission linkage and parts...

Also I will need to mount the bell on the motor it will be mated to and check run out, once we get to that point.

If all goes well, Saturday morning I'll be at my buddy's shop modding the bell... if all goes well, the next step will
be to mock it and check starter clearance with Dual Duals and Headers... then assemble and drop the combination
into the HPak Duster and test it...

More to come as time permits.

What I wonder about, not having tried it, is if the QT bell will fit in an A body without mods. It looks to me like the bellhousing-to-engine bolts might hit the firewall. But no one who has used one has mentioned this so I'm hoping it's not an issue.

Added 4 more pics to the batch in the link. We opted to just modify for the 130T flywheel instead of both, since I already have a half dozen bells that take the 122T flywheel.

You can take a denso mini-starter pull the end cap off and shim the starting gear shaft plunger with a socket, 9mm Casing, or bushing, it will leave the gear
in the engaged position so you can mock up the gear mesh with the flywheel and get your spacing correct.

If you slice it right, you can fill the gaps in the font bell flange with a piece of 3/8" solid square rod and a MIG welder... the starter nose cone was able to be tack welded
and bent from a piece of 1/8" mild steel flat stock 1/2" wide (our piece was 3' long and used about 8" or so if it, this same stock was used to elongate the starter location
on the plate as well. We bolted everything up on my mock block that was sat on it's nose so we could fit and fudge...the displacement is about 1/2" center to center
from the original to the new starter location, since it was diagonal in shift, the 3/8" stock was perfect for the straight fills.

Everything bolts up to the mock block and I could turn the crank with one hand on the counter weight, so that should work.... Tomorrow I will pull the engine out of the corner
uninstall the 11" clutch conversion off and bolt this conversion on...and if enough time I will get the transmission mounted, then maybe DI Jr can help dump it in the Duster to
see if it all fits correctly...That being said, once again something wasn't right and looking through my bags of bolts, they sent me a bag of hex caps and washers that are about
3" to short to fit the back of the bell to block mounts... so I will have to go to my local hardware store and get a set of 3 1/2" grade 5 bolts to make those connections....

I also notice that there is no way to access the clutch pressure plate, etc without removing the tranny and bell... so I will probably be using a tube of loctite on the bolts during installation.

Stay tuned...

OK....

I'm gonna have to cool it for a bit after this last round...Ibuprofen is just starting to kick in...

Progress Today:

Re organized shop space to get at the engine, get the crane into the right bay...move car back so I have a work spot...

Pulled the old 143T conversion off the engine, found that Loctite Red isn't as good as it should be... after removing the
clutch disc and pressure plate I found 4 of the ARP crank to flywheel bolts were only hand tight... these were all threadlocker
red on the threads and torqued to spec during installation, so I'm thinking that future 130T and 143T installations should use
the sheetmetal mechanical bolt head retainers on their installation....

I mocked up the flywheel to make sure the bolt holes lined up before I got into the install... I also took time to paint the
modded areas on the plate and starter pocket. Pictures of the plate and inside of the starter pocket before paint are posted.
I also posted pics of the clutch and bell install from the back, top, and looking at the starter pocket from the front of the engine.

Quicktime "shame on you" number 1 today came from the fact they didn't drill the bell for the clutch fork pivot for even their
own pivots... there is a weld in the way and the angle is all wrong if you use the bolt holes at do exist to install the stock
4 speed retainer... so I had to mock up the bell on the tranny, install their pivot with one bolt, install the fork and bearing...
maneuver the pivot and fork to squarly engage the bearing... then compare to the stock fork position on a normal bell, and
hope the angle and fork position coincide with the stock linkage (Fork Rod and Z-bar). I will deal with the Z-bar pivot mount
when it's all slide into the car and mocked up... this will not a be problem for the hydro bearing guy if using a direct hydro bearing,
not the piston to fork style.

Quicktime "shame on you" number 2 was surmised yesterday when we mocked the bell up and found none of the bags had
any of the upper bell to block bolts... so before the fun I quickly ran to Lowe's and picked up a fistful of 3/8" NC x 3 1/2"
grade 8 bolts and a bag of washers... those worked...

As Greg surmised these bolt heads are going to be close to the tranny hump or firewall... they should fit since the 143T bell
fit with a couple of "thumps" to that area.... Once I get the tranny installed and get Jr to help slide the assembly in, we will
see what the score will be...

Another heads up... test the bolt holes in the sheild... the 7/16" bolts that install from the front direction through the block flange
to the bell, were a bit tight threading through the plate, 3/8" bolts from the bell to back of the block were no problem...

I will check the starter clearance with the dual duals, before I pull the manifold stack for installation, I will convert back to
headers for use with the Fat Pak to gain the max power out of this build...which will see if the clutch will take that kind of
abuse....

More fun later in the week...

Repost URL so you don't have to backtrack for it...I added more than a dozen pics...may need a little longer to load...FYI.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/147773136 ... 9792626496

Drill the flywheel to crank bolt heads for safety wire...……………...

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes