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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:06 am 
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If the cam timing is not correct, and the timing chain is not sloppy, I wouldn't bother with a rollmaster, or a offset crank key. Just get a set of chevy offset cam bushings, drill the cam sprocket "pin" hole over size, and use the offset bushing to adjust the cam timing.

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65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2024 2:08 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
Quote:
If the cam timing is not correct, and the timing chain is not sloppy, I wouldn't bother with a rollmaster, or a offset crank key. Just get a set of chevy offset cam bushings, drill the cam sprocket "pin" hole over size, and use the offset bushing to adjust the cam timing.
Will do. Once I tear into it and figure out how to get it degree'd, I'll post some pictures of the situation before deciding how to move forward.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2024 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
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I did and "glued" three lifters together and put these in the #1 intake lifter hole the dial indicator on these.
I have degreed the cam several times as well with the head on. Charlie's 3 lifters works. But I just bolted a piece of scrap metal to a valve cover bolt that has a hole drilled in it the size of the push rod. Then drop the push rod through the hole and into the lifter on #1. Set your dial indicator on top of the push rod and go to town. :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2024 6:22 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
For future reference and future readers, this is really cool.

A web site that let's you build your own degree wheel (using your specific timing values, etc).
You can also print timing tape to wrap around a pulley, etc. It also has functions to print a myriad of other things too (protractors, clock faces, etc).

I played with my printer scaling to get a 7" diameter wheel, which is apparently the size of my pulley...I haven't taken it out to my engine yet, but that's the size it says in my Dutra rebuild manual. I'm going to try the timing tape, as well - it may be easier to use with the engine in the bay.

Degree wheel:
https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel

Timing tape:
https://www.blocklayer.com/timing-tape


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:57 am
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Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Car Model: 1966 Dodge Dart
Nice, I used that site myself when degreeing my cam.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2024 5:34 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
Attachment:
IMG_20240927_150222.jpg
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I obtained a dial indicator and then experimented with ways to find actual TDC and to measure cam movement with as little disassembly as possible. I'm optimistic that I finally have this cam degreeing thing understood at an apprentice level, or at least it isn't the occult ritual I perceived it to be just a few weeks ago. I'm looking for some confirmation from you guys to make sure I understand properly the information I now have before I plow forward and pull apart the front of the engine to make the adjustment I think I need to make. I've attached pictures so you can see yourself the results of verifying my intake cam lobe position. To explain, here's what's in the pictures:
Attachment:
IMG_20240927_145030.jpg
IMG_20240927_145030.jpg [ 125.22 KiB | Viewed 307 times ]
Dial indicator reading the intake cam opening at .020. From all my research (my Haynes manual, info I've read on this forum, etc), the stock rocker arm ratio is 1.5 and the ONLY place I could get a reliable reading without taking apart the rocker assembly is on the retainer. So, the indicated .030 opening reflects .020 x 1.5.
Attachment:
IMG_20240927_145053.jpg
IMG_20240927_145053.jpg [ 99.01 KiB | Viewed 307 times ]
My actual TDC was found to be dead-on and the "pointer" is the yellow mark on my factory probe tube. With that being said, I turned the engine clockwise until I achieve the valve opening of .030 and my effective crank measurement is 16 degrees BTDC. I perceive this is my issue, since the cam card indicates it should be 24 degrees BTDC. This suggests to me, if I'm not mistaken, that I'm likely off a tooth on my cam gear.

Does anyone see any problems with my methods or diagnosis? If not, I'll tear into it and see if this fixes my rough running!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 8603
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Did you remove all the valve lash before starting? No your rockers are not exactly 1.5. They could be 1.45 or 1.55 or somewhere in between.

I do my measurement off the Intake Centerline number on your cam card. Yours is 106 degrees. Once you are sure the TDC mark is correct. Make a temporary pointer to point to TDC on your paper wheel. Rotate the crank until the camshaft reaches the highest lift on the intake valve retainer. Turn the dial indicator to zero. Then go to .020 or .030 on either side of that zero and write down those two readings.(It doesn't matter what number you measure at as long as you do the same before and after the peak) Add them up and divide by two and that is your installed intake centerline. Double check your work. If it turns out to be 100 then you are 6 degrees advance and if it is 110 you are 4 degrees retarded. Adjust accordingly. Honestly if you are withing 1 or even 2 degrees of where you want to be, you are probably fine.

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
Image
12.70 @ 104.6
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:20 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
Quote:
Did you remove all the valve lash before starting? No your rockers are not exactly 1.5. They could be 1.45 or 1.55 or somewhere in between.

I do my measurement off the Intake Centerline number on your cam card. Yours is 106 degrees. Once you are sure the TDC mark is correct. Make a temporary pointer to point to TDC on your paper wheel. Rotate the crank until the camshaft reaches the highest lift on the intake valve retainer. Turn the dial indicator to zero. Then go to .020 or .030 on either side of that zero and write down those two readings.(It doesn't matter what number you measure at as long as you do the same before and after the peak) Add them up and divide by two and that is your installed intake centerline. Double check your work. If it turns out to be 100 then you are 6 degrees advance and if it is 110 you are 4 degrees retarded. Adjust accordingly. Honestly if you are withing 1 or even 2 degrees of where you want to be, you are probably fine.
Yup - the valve lash was removed from the rocker. I did read about others using your method to confirm timing so I'll try that as well - if it comes out the same and confirms my initial results, I'll be confident the cam is off. Thanks much!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 10:22 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
I did measurements on intake centerline and found that I am off by four degrees. I measured twice and I'm consistently coming out to 110 degrees. That seems to confirm my measurements on intake timing, suggesting I'm off a tooth. It looks like it's time to grab my favorite barley pop and get the wrenches out and adjust my chain.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 11:25 am 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
I think one tooth will be a lot more than 4 degrees. You will need to drill the gear and use offset bushings.

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
Image
12.70 @ 104.6
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
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Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
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I don't remember exactly how many degrees is one tooth, but it is more than 10 degrees.
Edit: Just checked a stock cam sprocket. 38 teeth 360 degrees equals 9.47 degrees per tooth.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 3:07 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
I was wondering how big a change one tooth would be. Sounds like the project is getting more involved!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
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Quote:
I was wondering how big a change one tooth would be. Sounds like the project is getting more involved!
Not really. Just remove the cam sprocket, and drill the dowel pin hole over size, and install a offset bushing. They come in a set of even numbers, or a set of odd numbers. You can buy them for either Mopar or Chevy. Same part. The directions for the bushing will tell you what size to drill.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:16 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Car Model: '85 D100 with an early 60s 225ci
Quote:
Quote:
I was wondering how big a change one tooth would be. Sounds like the project is getting more involved!
Not really. Just remove the cam sprocket, and drill the dowel pin hole over size, and install a offset bushing. They come in a set of even numbers, or a set of odd numbers. You can buy them for either Mopar or Chevy. Same part. The directions for the bushing will tell you what size to drill.
Just so I don't order the wrong part, I'm assuming this is what you are describing?
https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams ... B000CIS8G8


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:28 am 
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Quote:


Just so I don't order the wrong part, I'm assuming this is what you are describing?
https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams ... B000CIS8G8
That's correct

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225


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