I'm planning on building a 500+hp twin turbo EFI 170 in a 79 Aspen 2dr, not sure if that's possible but i'm shooting for it anyway. May try and use a Chrysler SMEC-type EFI off a 89-90 V6 and modify it so as to be laptop programmable using D-Cal. Rather use something like FAST or MoTec, but that's big money. Anyway i have some questions about the motor itself.

#1)Do all S6 heads flow the same or are some better than others?

#2)Whats the biggest valve size you can run in them, and where do you get the valves?

#3)Do 170's have forged cranks?
#3a)If so, can they be lightened, and how much?

#4)Some one said the Cox Bro. made roller rockers and roller cams for the S6, if so what's their web site or phone number?

#5)Anybody on here do porting and valve angle jobs?

regardless of what system you use, you'll be in to "the big" money for what you're trying to do:

#1) you can read in the articles section about combustion chambers an review the slant sickness articles about heads, etc... they are all pretty similar except for the combustion chamber (pre-66, vs. "late" type), and the spark plug type you want to run (pre-74 drool type vs. BL 1975+)
So ports will be very much the same except for casting flash etc..

#2)Stock O/S style drop ins are available form Si valves for about $10/12 each and are 1.70/1.44 others have gone with ford valves for a little bit bigger size, but when the head is too close to the chamber wall and you can't unshroud it properly you run into other problems...

#3)Yes, all 170's should have forged cranks, they stopped producing them in 1969 so they didn't make it to the 1976 cast crank era...
#3a)This is a good question for Doc, there are some interesting pics about lightened cranks for the 225....

#4)Just do a search for the Cox Brothers on this site, they have and e-mail and a phone number and they will get back to you with both a catalog and a personal phone call. They have both items, one thing to note, is the roller cam will be a race only item and you'll have to 'check' it for wear regularly. I got to inspect one Doc had this summer and the 'potential' for power is there with the roller cam, but they are not cheap enough to be street worthy yet, and there are wear issues with the roller lifters that make things a bit $$$. I would agree that for turbo/EFI that the roller cam profile is "IT"...Columbus, Ohio. 614/268-9920. Ask for Jim or John and they will fix you up... they also have the copper "O" ring gaskets that might be good for your set up too...

#5) I think the guys you want to talk to are:J&M Engine Dynamics = Mike at 308-324-3576, in which case, you can disregard #2 since these guys will set up you up once you send in your head...


Good luck on your project...it's going to be a 'winder',

-D.Idiot

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Heh,

I'd like to win the lottery too! I'm putting a roller cam 360 motor into my dart to make 300 Streetable RWHP! Not that it's set in stone, but about 1.25 HP/CI (Crank Net) is considered the limits of street drivablity, so I take it this is a drag-race only trailer vehicle

I VERY seriously considered EFI/Turbo"ing" my 225 to get my desired ~300 RWHP, but it would have cost me 2 times as much as building a small block to get the same power at a street comfortable RPM.

I mean, Yea I know there are some seriously bad ass /6 motors out there, take the Cox Brothers racer for example... but thats a dedicated racing vehicle. And it wasn't a "$700 Buildup" either. (I use 700 because my 360 including all mods to get to 300 RWHP will cost me ~$700+My labor)

I wish you all the luck and success in the world, but 500 RWHP on a slant 6 is way out of my price and punishment range. Shooting for 300 RWHP from a 170 is pretty wild IMHO.

_________________
When in doubt, empty the magazine.
'72 Dart Swinger /6 - My Yard Dart!
'01 Ranger P/U 4x4 X-cab
We buy and sell MOPARTS & Ford Parts!!!
http://www.usironauto.com

i dont mean to change the subject. ive spend many hours reading posts on this great sight and for the most part they are all great and i learn alot. the members of this group for the most part seem to be great people and all share a love for a little slants. on the other side of the coin is "panic." i have read a post of his that doesnt come off negative or as a put down to someone even if it isnt stated directly. i feel he needs to get off his high horse and try to change his attitude. if anyone else has been offended by his pointless assholeness i think they should speak up, this sight is full of great information and great people. sorry for the rant but im sick of his flat out rudeness.

Oh Boy,

I think that we all make comments that offend someone. Personally I think that the whole point of a community is to be inclusive, not exclusive. I'm a Mopar - Idiot compared to the likes of Doug D and Duster Idiot, and I know a bit more than some of the 1bbl's on here.

We all make comments about what our experiences are... sometimes we are dead on and sometimes we are full of crap (myself especially).


Basically I'm saying: Bringing up someone elses bad attitude in a topic about engine building doesn't help ANYONE... If he (Panic) has offended you that bad then report it to the site operator. If it's not worth reporting then why hijack the Topic? Have you tried directly PM'ing him about it?

I'm sure now I'll take flak for trying to play peacemaker again, but in this case he only posted what he was thinking about the topic. Sarcasm isn't against forum policy.

_________________
When in doubt, empty the magazine.
'72 Dart Swinger /6 - My Yard Dart!
'01 Ranger P/U 4x4 X-cab
We buy and sell MOPARTS & Ford Parts!!!
http://www.usironauto.com

like i said, i'm not sure if it's possible. although i kinda think it is, after all they're getting 800-1000+ hp out of stock bottom-end 3.0 Supras, granted they have twin-cam crossflow heads, but still, i don't think 500 is to high a goal if it's done right. And belive it or not, i do plan on this vehicle being street legal, although not in the daily-driver sense .
As for money, yeah it will be expensive, but i have a number of resources that will cut some of the costs down a good bit. E.G., me and my dad are in the junkyard business, so i can get stuff like stock EFI systems and turbos dirt cheap or free. Also have a buddy who is a professional welder who will weld for me just to have something to do.

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S. Dragon
Affected by Multiple Moparosis

72 D100, Poly-powered 5-spd project
73 D100 Club Cab Adventurer SWB, factory 360 auto
79 Aspen, Turbo EFI project
87 GLHS, #392
89 Lebaron, Supercharged 3.0 5-spd project
+ 2 88 TSI's, 84 SC, 86 Turbo Z

Yup, more revs, although not so much for more power than for a wider useable rpm range. Also the shorter stroke has a better rod ratio, so it will create less stress on the internals than the long stroke 225, making for a more reliable engine. Plus, since it's a low deck engine, I'm assuming it will weigh a little less than the 190 and 225.

_________________
S. Dragon
Affected by Multiple Moparosis

72 D100, Poly-powered 5-spd project
73 D100 Club Cab Adventurer SWB, factory 360 auto
79 Aspen, Turbo EFI project
87 GLHS, #392
89 Lebaron, Supercharged 3.0 5-spd project
+ 2 88 TSI's, 84 SC, 86 Turbo Z

I would love to see you pull this off but as the old saying goes"Speed costs--how fast do you want to go???"I would be happy for 1 horse per cube from my 170 Hyper-Pak but dont think thats going to happen.
I think that the head and valve arrangement are going to be the biggest drawbacks(the Nissan Skyline is a dohc engine that was designed for performance from the get go).Forced induction is most likely a must and the bottom end may be living on borrowed time at 500 horse power.I dont think I would futz around with a fuel injection system on a engine like this but instead build a dedicated system with parts from someone like Rance Fuel systems or some other fuel injection expert.
I sincererley hope you can pull this off but it wont be cheap or easy but nothing worth doing rarely is.
HyperValiant

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1960 Hyper-Pac Valiant(rolling test-bed)
1963 Valiant V2OO(Son's summer project,- he just turned 15 )
1972 Valiant 4dr(Daughter Kelly's repair in progress)
1974 Valiant (v8) daughter Kelly's work in progress

Well,

Like I said, I really do wish you the best. I too get jaded sometimes. I live in a trailer park, scrounge money by selling parts I have to buy in order to sell, and my idea of a high dollar project is a thousand dollars!

I in NO way am trying to discourage your quest for 500 RWHP (you can't ever have too much power), but like you said... it ain't gonna be cheap or polite on a commute

_________________
When in doubt, empty the magazine.
'72 Dart Swinger /6 - My Yard Dart!
'01 Ranger P/U 4x4 X-cab
We buy and sell MOPARTS & Ford Parts!!!
http://www.usironauto.com

A cast iron 225 block weighs 134 pounds

A cast iron 170 block weighs 114 pounds

An aluminum 225 block weighs 64 pounds

Aluminum 170 blocks where only created as engineering prototypes and never saw factory production.

If you are intent on making 500+ horsepower, I think turbocharging is the way to go. A few people have already gone this route and the last one I remember reading about is Dartvader. Lou Madsen (Dart270) was helping him with the project and he has posted a few pictures so far. One of them is below.



I have no idea how much power it produces but there probably aren't many slants that produce more.

Frank

hey, i live in a park too, and make extra money the same way. Sweeet! I don't have to pay much for my parts though (or nothing at all!).

I don't think you're trying to discourage at all, just trying to let me know that it ain't no cheap 'n easy road to go down. You probably get a lot of new guys coming in here and saying " oh yeah, i want to turbo and EFI my /6 and make 900 hp and drive it on the street everyday" and stuff like that, w/o having a clue about what's involved.

while i am a newbie on this list, i have been into cars and a die hard Dodge fan since i was a kid. The 1st vehicle i ever bought was an 84 D150 swb w/ a 225 1bbl that i bought from my Dad when i was 14. Did a 2bbl swap on it about 3-4 months after i got it. I have almost always done my own work, also i've been around or involved with almost every kind of racing. So i do know something about what i'm up against, and i realize any criticism is purely constructive, and i appreciate it as much as i do the advice. I've been mostly a SB V8 and TD guy, so anything anyone can tell on the / is greatly appreciated.

_________________
S. Dragon
Affected by Multiple Moparosis

72 D100, Poly-powered 5-spd project
73 D100 Club Cab Adventurer SWB, factory 360 auto
79 Aspen, Turbo EFI project
87 GLHS, #392
89 Lebaron, Supercharged 3.0 5-spd project
+ 2 88 TSI's, 84 SC, 86 Turbo Z

Best of luck on the project. Mike Jeffrey, Charlie S, and the Drakes will be good resources. Mike just set up killer head for me, which I haven't tested yet. AFAIK, Mike has made more RWHP than anyone, all 225 motors.

I don't see why you can't do it, but it will take commitment.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

There is an old saying that there is no subsitute for cubic inches. Why use the 170 and turn more rpms? By turning the higher rpms you are making the 170 "breath" the same amount of air as the 225 does at lower rpms. Keeping the RPM's down on slant six makes it live longer.(and yes I know the 170 can handle it)

The 9.85 run at Bristol was making somewhere around 410-420hp.(depends on what formula you use) This is a 232ci stock crank(not lightened), a MP purple shaft cam(small one), 2.2L hypereutectic pistons, 1.6 roller rockers and 12# of boost and never reved tighter than 6000. We were running alcohol but no intercooler so spend your $$ on intercooling and a good EFI management system. Why go to all of the trouble you are talking about? You do not need the roller cam, lightened crank, high rpms...etc.(IMHO) Just turn the boost up to 15-18# and let her eat. Good head flow at lower lift is also important to a boosted motor. We have not seen anything in the two motors that we have run to suggest a reliablity problem at these performance levels.

Check out the Simca thread in the virtual dragstrip forum for details and times.
Tom