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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:25 pm 
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1 BBL (New)

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 5
Car Model:
I have been trying to get a recently acquired 77 Volare inspected and legal - 115,000 miles, Super six.

Here's the entire saga:
Test 1 -
CO 10.0 (3.0 to pass) FAIL
HC 555 (300 to pass) FAIL


Action:
New Cat Converter
Full Tune Up: wires, plugs, filters, Oil
Rebuilt Carb
EGR Valve
PCV Valve
Vacuum hoses

-----------------
Test 2 -
CO 2.7 PASS
HC 543 FAIL


Action:
Tuned Carb as lean as it can stand
RxP Gas Kicker
Set Timing
Ignitor and coil
Double-checked choke

-----------------
Test 3-
CO 0.67 PASS
HC 1,400 !! FAIL


HC went UP by a factor of like 100%. I am at my wits end. The car is plenty warm when testing, it's not burning any oil at all, it can't run any leaner, the timing is set well.
I can apply for a waiver, but what I really want is for the thing to run correctly. Anyone have a good insight here for somethig to check?

_________________
1977 Volare 4D
Super Six / Carter BBD
113,000 miles


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24449
Location: North America
Car Model:
Well, first off, skip the "Gas Kicker" type stuff. Also, what do you mean when you refer to the "ignitor"?

Your HCs are indeed wayyyyy off the charts. That could indicate any of many faults. Your engine could be burning oil (if you just bought it, how do you know it's not?). You could have an internal carburetor fault that wasn't addressed (or couldn't be) in the rebuild. You could have one or more vacuum leaks. Your air pump or its check valve could be faulty. The catalytic converter installed could be the wrong type and/or installed the wrong way round. The tappet clearance (valve adjustment) could be way off (generally too tight will produce high HC readings).

The jump in HC when you tuned the carb very lean is because the too-lean idle mixture causes a great many misfires, which pump unburned gasoline into the exhaust stream. These early catalyst cars really have to be tuned by the book (specs and procedures) in order to run correctly and pass. That means propane-enriched idle adjustment, exact timing adjustments (have you checked that your timing mark actually indicated TDC? They do slip!), etc.

300ppm HC and 3.0% CO, tested at idle, is a lax standard designed to make sure the really gross polluters don't get license tags; unfortunately right now your car fits the "gross polluter" category.

So...time for some systematic diagnosis! I think after checking for vacuum leaks and making sure the air injection system is working correctly, I'd focus in on the carburetor. Internal leaks are not unheard-of. Stuck-open step-up rods? Missing step-up rod(s)? Previous-owner abuse of various parts? (I've seen it recommended to drill out the idle tubes...this is a poor idea and will cause nothing but high emissions and rotten gas mileage).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:26 pm 
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1 BBL (New)

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 5
Car Model:
Thanks for the quick reply:
Quote:
Your engine could be burning oil (if you just bought it, how do you know it's not?).
OK, I say it's not burning oil mostly because I changed it at 113,000 and 2,500 miles later it's still filled give or take (maybe down a few ounces, but not even a 1/2 quart)
Quote:
You could have an internal carburetor fault that wasn't addressed (or couldn't be) in the rebuild.
I actually bought a rebuilt carb from Carb Exchange. I've had great success before with them, and it comes guaranteed. (but since I didn't rebuild who knows what's going on in there)
Quote:
You could have one or more vacuum leaks. Your air pump or its check valve could be faulty. The catalytic converter installed could be the wrong type and/or installed the wrong way round. The tappet clearance (valve adjustment) could be way off (generally too tight will produce high HC readings).
I'm pretty sure that there are no detectable vacuum leaks, at least at all the hoses, gasket and connections. I'm sure my valve's could use a little adjusting, they may actually be a little loose, I'm sure they're not tight. The cat can only go on one direction, it's an OEM fit with the to-muffler-pipe welded right to it. I wonder if it might be faulty though.
Quote:
The jump in HC when you tuned the carb very lean is because the too-lean idle mixture causes a great many misfires, which pump unburned gasoline into the exhaust stream. These early catalyst cars really have to be tuned by the book (specs and procedures) in order to run correctly and pass.
I wouln't have known that, actually. I'll go back to prime carb/timing adjustment for the next test.
Quote:
That means propane-enriched idle adjustment, exact timing adjustments (have you checked that your timing mark actually indicated TDC? They do slip!), etc.
Uh Oh, you got beyond me there. I'm kind of learning as I go here, and I'm not sure what Propane Encriched Idle adj. is. Also, I don't know how I would check the TDC mark alignment?
Quote:
...I'd focus in on the carburetor. Internal leaks are not unheard-of. Stuck-open step-up rods? Missing step-up rod(s)? Previous-owner abuse of various parts? (I've seen it recommended to drill out the idle tubes...this is a poor idea and will cause nothing but high emissions and rotten gas mileage).
Ok, thanks for the advice. As to the previous owner's treatment, the car has been gingerly cared for all 30 years by a couple in Maine. They actually provided me with a notebook documenting everything ever done to the car. Every oil change, every tire rotation, etc. Not to say that things might have happened here and there, but all in all the original parts on this car are in crazy-good condition. Which leads me to suspect the Carb and the Cat which are new to the mix.

I'll tweak what I can, retune the carb and timing and see what happens. Thanks

_________________
1977 Volare 4D
Super Six / Carter BBD
113,000 miles


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24449
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
OK, I say it's not burning oil mostly because I changed it at 113,000 and 2,500 miles later it's still filled
Give the oil a careful sniff. Does it smell of gasoline at all? A ruptured fuel pump diaphragm will pump a shot of gas into the crankcase with every pump stroke; this will then be drawn off by the PCV system and screw up the mixture (way rich). Not likely your problem, but it is something to check.
Quote:
I actually bought a rebuilt carb from Carb Exchange. I've had great success before with them, and it comes guaranteed.
I am super-suspicious of rebuilt carbs and have only a very few trusted sources, as you've probably seen me saying in here. No experience with Carb Exchange. Do they do their own work, or are they just a W.D. for someone else's line of remanufactured units?
Quote:
That means propane-enriched idle adjustment, exact timing adjustments (have you checked that your timing mark actually indicated TDC? They do slip!), etc.

Uh Oh, you got beyond me there. I'm kind of learning as I go here, and I'm not sure what Propane Encriched Idle adj. is. Also, I don't know how I would check the TDC mark alignment?
Propane-enriched idle setting is a procedure whereby propane is introduced into the intake and RPM drop is measured, you do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around, etc. The procedure is in the factory service manual, which you very urgently need. There's a special tool that was used to introduce the propane. This is no longer available; somewhere here I've got instructions for modifying a standard propane torch to do the job. I'll dig 'em up and post ASAP.
Quote:
Ok, thanks for the advice. As to the previous owner's treatment, the car has been gingerly cared for all 30 years by a couple in Maine.
Good, good. Was it the original carburetor you took off? Do you still have it?

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject: Pass!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:10 pm 
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1 BBL (New)

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 5
Car Model:
Well, retuned carb and timing to spec (actually a little retarded from spec, but close) and what-do-you-know - passed. 1.67 CO, 278 HC.

I guess there was some mis-firing happening in there, it's all I can figure based on your comments from yesterday. It didn't sound like it to me, but I'm no expert either.

Coincidentally, I finally filled out the form for my repairs, and realized I already qualified for a waiver. Figures that I pass the test the day I realize that.

But I'm the better for it. I would have worried that there was something serious/hidden going on if i couldn't get below 600 on my HC, and certainly if I was riding at 1400.

Thanks for your help.

_________________
1977 Volare 4D
Super Six / Carter BBD
113,000 miles


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 Post subject: Re: Pass!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24449
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
Well, retuned carb and timing to spec (actually a little retarded from spec, but close) and what-do-you-know - passed. 1.67 CO, 278 HC.
Good work getting the emissions cleaned up. 1.67% CO is a tetch high, not too bad. 278 ppm HC is still on the high side given that your car has a catalyst. Obviously you passed the test, so that's no longer a concern, but you're still burning more fuel than you have to...probably still some room for tweaking and tuning.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


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