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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

1. Check ohm rating of the reluctor coil in the distributor again, unplug wire going G & W on the modules and check. If working it should be between 150 to 900 ohms. Mine shows about 300 ohms.
2. Test voltage at terminal "C" unplugged from the coil, while cranking.
3. Test the negative terminal while cranking. Hopefully the coil isn't shorted out internally. How new is it?

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Aggressive Ted

http://cid-32f1e50ddb40a03c.photos.live ... %20Swinger


74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG

Hey Ted,
Just checked. It is 283.9 Ohms.
Am not able to do this at this time because I've started taking the Dash apart. The Bright Headlights are not working, and am going to fix that before proceeding.

BUT, one of the guys who is a Automotive Teacher over at the Ford Muscle Forum said to check the "-" side of the Ignition Coil with a Test Light, with the Run Switch ON, and while cranking the Engine. He said if it blinks, the Control Module is alright.

Went out and did this test, and got a steady light with just the Run Switch ON. And when the Engine was cranked, the Test Light didn't blink, but just stayed ON.
That's what was done (see response to "2") Am afraid that the Test Light coming on steady is an indication that the Ignition Coil IS shorted out internally.
It was bought in July of 2012. It has less than ten hours of run time on it. It is a Standard BlueStreak FD-478X.

It will be a while before I'll be getting back to working on Lorrie's HEI System. This rewiring of the Brights isn't going to as easy as had been imagined.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

What is the reading without a tooth lined up with the pickup...

and

What is the gap between the pickup and the reluctor tooth when lined up (use feeler gauge).

-D.Idiot

Hey Mr. DI,
Don't know.
Again, I don't know.

The latest diagnostic indicate that the Ignition Coil is toast.

But it really doesn't make any difference.

Am canceling Lorrie's Insurance tomorrow.

Have taken Lorrie's Dash completely apart, and purposely didn't keep track of what wires go where. The reason for doing this is so that NOW there is no reason to continue trying to make her start&run.

Besides, the WHOLE Instrument Panel is going to have to be done COMPLETELY from scratch because what started out as a nice orderly arrangement had over the past four years turned into a jumble of wires that no longer makes any sense whatsoever.

Have cleaned all the tools, materials, and equipment out of Lorrie, and need to do something about the clutter around the place here born of neglect brought on by the doing nothing other than work on Lorrie and rest.

Am going to get Ms. American off of the Jack Stands and Ramps tomorrow, and she is going to have to take me to do the weekly errands once a week. If she breaks down, will just have her towed back here to be with Lorrie.

Am going to move Lorrie back to where she sat for sixteen years and will work on her if and when I'm ever inspired to do so again.

Anyway, want to thank all of you guys for all the help. It's hard to admit that one is in WAY over one's head, but I just can't do this anymore.

Hope that you all are well.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Sorry to hear it. Good luck with your future endeavors!

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

Sorry to hear that.... You have come a long way, it didn't have spark, OK, that's actually a good thing the way I look at it! Troubleshoot it when you good and ready. But, it's pointless working on her until your ready, take a break, enjoy life and get back to her when your ready. I couldn't tell you how many hours I have spent troubleshooting old cars and chasing gremlins in 50 year old aircraft ( I worked as an engineer for many years) I had days where I just couldn't charge people what it takes per hour, but I got payment in the satisfaction of fixing it and learning everyday. Your " payday" will come with Lorrie my friend !! Take a break, she will wait! By the way, it's a HEI unit, just an electronic set of points, no magic, don't look too deeply, all it needs is a signal from the dissy( how are those connector plugs with those two wires) then it operates a switching transistor , the actual points so to speak. The reason it gets hot is it carries a fair bit of current from a lower resistance coil, if you ran a conventional set of points with a hei coil they would burn out fast, that's all it does, just makes/ breaks a circuit like the points did. GM never reinvented the wheel, they just made it a little rounder!

Hey Reed,
Thanks.

Actually, this change of directions is more of a falling back and regrouping than a retreat.

The decision to go with the HEI System with the hodgepodge of components was a mistake. Just because each of the mismatched components work individually, doesn't mean that they will work when assembled.

The decision to ditch the HEI System has subsequently elicited a number of responses from some very savvy individuals who have revealed some rather esoteric factors that pretty much doomed the whole project from the beginning.

One lives and hopefully learns.

Anyway, this is not the END of Lorrie. It's more of a NEW beginning which will eventually accomplish the intended results in a more reasonable manner.

And again, I want to thank you for your help. We did our best to do what we could. It just wasn't the best thing to do.

Be well.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Steve,
The experience gained in doing this was worth the doing of it. It would have been nice had it finally functioned as advertised, but there were just too many conflicting factors which created a domino effect. It wouldn't have been so bad if the dominoes had had a beginning and end, but it was a circular domino effect. The first thing affected the next thing, and the next, and the next. And as each one was remedied, it finally got to the last thing fixed affected the first thing to go wrong, and the whole process started all over again.
Actually, am ditching the HEI System and going back to the Points&Condenser Distributor and Ignition Coil.
As mentioned to Reed, this is not a retreat. This is a falling back to regroup.
I know what you mean.
Hopefully.
Right.
That's the concept. BUT, there are a bunch of factors that unless they are known and addressed right from the start lead to problems with the mishmash of mismatched components that may or may not work.
Am reminded of the story about the guy who invented the first wheel. It was square. And then he got the idea that if he made it triangular, it would eliminate one bump per revolution!

Anyway, everything will work out.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

J.C., It's a good thing to back off and recharge. Live a little non automotive life and (as others have said) get back to Lorrie when you're ready.
I would raid a local junkyard and grab a complete MOPAR electronic ignition, distributor and all. Points just add another variable that you don't need.

We'll be here for ya when you come back!

BC

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'64 Dart GT convertible, 64 Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust (the Az Dart) & a sixty THREE Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust. (future project)
Early Dart Disorder (EDD) is real, and I've got it!

Hey Mr. 64R,
Actually, the fall back and regroup is only with regards to Lorrie Van Haul.

The other vehicle here is Ms. American 3.14159, the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web is in need of some TLC maintenance, and am going to be checking her Right Front Wheel Bearings this morning. Did the Left Front Yesterday.
Alas, there isn't a local junkyard within fifty miles.
But, all the parts for the conversion BACK to a Points&Condenser System are already on hand and the re-installation could be done in a single day.

BUT, have been doing some rethinking of this whole proposition, and have decided to write a full account of it in hopes that maybe something either obvious or esoteric might be found to explain it.

So permit me to describe at length the situation as it now stands with Lorrie and maybe we can come to some kind of definite conclusion about what to do.

Let's start with the decision to go to the HEI System Conversion delineated by Daniel Stern here on the Slant Six Forum under the thread name: "HEI Electronic Ignition Retrofit How-To".

It was recommended that a NOS Mopar Electronic Distributor with a single pickup and vacuum advance be acquired from Old Car Parts Northwest, along with a Standard Blue Streak CH-410X Distributor Cap to replace the Aluminum Contact Distributor Cap, and so THAT was done.

It was recommended that a set of NEW Spark Plug Wires be acquired, and so having worked previously with MSD 8.5mm Copper Alloy Wires with 5 Ohms of resistance per foot of length, they were acquired.

It was recommended that a Standard Blue Streak LX301 Control Module complete with accompanying Heat Sink be acquired, and so THAT was done.

It was recommended that a Standard Blue Streak FD784X Ignition Coil, along with a Standard #S-539 Connector be acquired, and so THAT was done.

It was recommended that a set of NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs gapped to 0.045, with the Washers removed be acquired, and so THAT was done.

And so with the collection of ALL NEW components on hand, the assembling, installing, and appropriate wiring of the HEI System was done.

And when Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six was asked to start, VOILA'! It started right up and ran famously! It was GREAT! Lorrie couldn't have been happier!

And everything was going along just fine until the Summer started changing to Autumn. And thus it was that on the first cold morning of November, 2012 the temperature had gone down into the low 30s.

Lorrie had been out and about the previous day, and on the following slightly chilly morning, she was asked to start, and all she would do was crank!

But not to worry, there was a can of NAPA Start Fluid on hand, and so her rare Bendix Stromberg Model WA3 Single Barrel Carburetor, which had been acquired from Daniel Stern, was given a short spritz of the stuff, and Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six was cranked, and it didn't even cough!

This made me want to go: "Hmmmmmm!"

So it became obvious that what was needed was to go through the process of tracking down of the offending anomaly.

Alas, everything checked out to be in PERFECT working order!

The process of checking everything took a while, and by the time it was finished, the day had began to shrug off the slightly frigid morning temperatures and it was now in the low 70s.

Upon completion of the diagnostic process, Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine was again asked to start, and VOILA', it started right up and ran famously! And so once again it was GREAT, and Lorrie couldn't have been happier.

So with Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine running, it was decided that some more testing was in order.

The first thing that got checked was the Voltage going to the NEW NAPA Legend 75 (Parts Number 7565) Battery, and horror of horrors, it was shown to be receiving 18.9 Volts!!! NOT GOOD!

Now be aware, that this had probably been going on for some time. Keep THAT thought in mind.

As a result of this finding, Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine was shut down, and another NEW NAPA Mechanical Voltage Regulator was installed and hooked up.

Lorrie' MIGHTY 225 Slant Six was again fired up and the NAPA Legend 75 Battery's Voltage was tested and shown to be receiving 14.8 Volts. NOT GREAT, but it was surmised that all the cranking of the Starter had possibly drained the Battery, and that the Voltage would drop once the Battery was fully charged.

And so Lorrie was once again on the road, and everything was fine till the NEXT cold morning. Temperature was again down in the low 30s, and Lorrie was asked to start, and all she would do was crank. This once again made me want to go: "Hmmmmmm!"

Again her rare Bendix Stromberg Model WA3 Single Barrel Carburetor was given a short spritz of Start Fluid, and Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six was cranked, and it didn't even cough!

And so again the previous tests were done and everything was found to be in PERFECT working order.

Again, the process of checking everything took a while, and by the time it was finished, the day had again shrugged off the slightly frigid morning temperatures and was again in the low 70s.

Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine was again asked to start, and VOILA', it started right up and ran famously! And so once again it was GREAT, and Lorrie couldn't have been happier.

But by this time, it had started to become obvious that Lorrie MIGHT not start when it was cold.

And so the next morning, with the temperatures again in the low 30s, even though Lorrie services were not needed, she was once again asked to start, and she once again refused even with the urging of the NAPA Start Fluid.

So the natural thing to do was to suspect that she wasn't getting any spark. And so Spark Plug Wire Number 5 was pulled, the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plug removed, put back into the Boot and laid against a ground, and the Engine cranked, and wonder of wonders, it put out a BIG, FAT, Blue/White Spark!

And so now was beginning to suspect that maybe it was not the HEI System that was at fault, but maybe it was that the Engine was flooded because the cold temperatures were low enough to keep the gasoline from vaporizing.

So ALL of the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs were extracted, and the Number 1 and Number 6 Plugs were covered in BLACK SOOT, and the Number 6 Plug was WET with gasoline. Spark Plugs 2, 3, 4, and 5 were in perfect shape, with slightly tan Porcelain. They were left out, and the Bendix Stromberg Carburetor was removed, taken apart, cleaned, check to make sure that ALL the passages were open, a NEW Gasket installed, and all the Adjusting Screws were put back to where they had been, and the next day, it was re-installed on Lorrie's Intake Manifold.

The Spark Plugs were then reinstalled, and Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine was again asked to start. The temperature was in the mid 70s and wonder of wonders, the Engine didn't even make two revolutions before it fired right up, and ran famously! GREAT! Lorrie couldn't be happier.

Checked the Voltage going to the Battery. It was 14.9 Volts. Again, NOT GREAT, but livable. While Lorrie was running the Idle Mixture Screw was again adjusted, the Fast Idle Screw was set so that the Engine was running at 800 RPM, and the Hot Engine Idle Screw was adjusted for a 550 RPM Curb Idle. Everything was copacetic.

Went out the next morning, temperatures in the high 30s, and Lorrie's Engine would not start!

Pulled Number 6 Spark Plug, and found that it had cleaned up during the previous days running, and the Porcelain was now the same tan color as the rest of the Plugs, but it was wet with gasoline. It was put into the Spark Plug Boot and laid against a ground. The Engine was cranked, and THIS time, there was NO SPARK!

Suspecting that it might have become fuel fouled, the rest of the Plugs were extracted, and NONE of them would spark! And so a NEW set of NGK ZFR5Ns were acquired, and at the urging of professional mechanic they were gapped to 0.035", would be left out till the next day to let the possibly flooded Cylinders dry out.

The next morning, temperatures were in the mid 50s. The Spark Plugs were installed, and Lorrie's Engine fired right up, this time Lorrie was NOT quite as happy as she had been, but at least she was again, up and running.

Went out the next day, temperatures in the high 50s, and Lorrie would not start. Pulled the Number 6 Spark Plug and put it back into the boot, and laid it again a ground, and it would NOT spark. Pulled the rest of the Plugs and they would NOT spark. But these were BRAND NEW Plugs and couldn't not have been fouled.

At this point, was beginning once again to suspect that there was something wrong with the HEI System.

So the Standard Blue Streak LX301 Control Module, and the Legend 75 Battery were removed. Took them both along with the two NAPA Voltage Regulators to NAPA from whence they had come, and off Ms. American and I went. Had the Battery load tested at Smith Auto Electric, and Wesley Smith said: This Battery is toast!" Took the LX301 to O'Reilly's and had it tested. And the guy doing the testing said: "This Control Module is toast!"

So we continued on to NAPA, and Keith, the manager, was told what had happened. He allowed as to how they had been having problem with people bringing Voltage Regulators back because they were allowing too much Voltage to the Battery. He gave me a NEW NAPA Legend Battery, and traded me the two Voltage Regulators for a NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module.

So NOW, Lorrie had a NEW Control Module, and a NEW Battery, but was without a Voltage Regulator. In searching for a NEW Voltage regulator, information was found that proffered that a HEI System would not long survive a Mechanical Voltage Regulator. That an Electronic Voltage Regulator was NECESSARY to run in conjunction with a HEI System.

And so a NEW Electronic Voltage Regulator was found at FBO System. It is their Mopar replacement VR-1. Upon its arrival, it was installed, and VOILA', Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine fired right up! The Voltage going to the Battery was 13.3 Volts. RIGHT WHERE IT SHOULD BE! And so all was again copacetic, and Lorrie was once again happy.

Lorrie was driven around for three days. And then came the NEXT cold morning. Went out to go run some errands, and Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine WOULD NOT START.

Ran all the tests again (by now, am getting really good at doing this) and everything appeared to be just fine.


Pulled Spark Plug Number 6, put it in the Boot, put it against a ground and got NO spark. It was suggested that a Spark Plug be put into the Distributor end of the Wire between the FD784X Ignition Coil and the Distributor, lay it against a ground and crank the Engine to check for spark. There was NONE.

The next test was to hook a Test Light to the "-" Terminal of the Ignition Coil, and put the probe on the "B" Terminal of the NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module, and crank the Engine. If the Test Light Blinks, the Control Module is good. Did this. As soon as the Run Switch was turned on, the Test Light lighted. The Engine was cranked. NO BLINK. Just a steady light. Am surmising that this means that the FD784X Ignition Coil is not functioning.

Hooked a MultiMeter set to read Ohm, and got a reading of infinity between the "+" and "-" Terminals of the FD784X Ignition Coil.

And gentlemen, THAT is where Lorrie Van Haul, the ONLY 1967 Dodge P200 Postal Van sits presently.

She has:
A NEW NAPA Legend 75 Battery.
A NEW FBO System VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator.
A NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module.
A "probably" fritzed Standard Blue Streak FD784 Ignition Coil.

There is also here a fritzed Standard Blue Streak LX301 Control Module.

Now for the FUN part... At various times, was able to go out and Lorrie would start right up. Was able to go out a couple of hours later and Lorrie would NOT start. It was a totally random craps shoot.

Suspected it might be the Run Switch. But it has never checked out to be anything but PERFECT.

Suspected it might be a loose Terminal Connection. But every one of them has never checked out to be anything but PERFECT.

And the only correlation that can be ascertained is that Lorrie will sometimes start&run when it is not cold. Sometimes she will NOT start&run when it is NOT cold. She will NEVER start&run when it IS cold.

The only thing wrong was that Lorrie would not start&run consistently.

The preceding has been a summary of what all has been previously written in this thread.

Have since starting this whole project been in contact with some very astute individuals which have made all sorts of suggestions as to why Lorrie will not function consistently and reliably. And one of them, upon asking me where I got the idea to do this project, was informed from whence it came, and this highly esteemed technicians said (referring to Daniel): "Why would ANYONE want to do anything that THAT 'bearded clam' said to do?"

At this point, I am trying to decide whether or not I should acquire another FD784X Ignition Coil, and make ONE LAST ATTEMPT to make Daniel Stern's HEI System Conversion work before reinstalling Lorrie's OLD Points&Condenser Ignition system.

Thanks for reading this. It was written in an attempt to get some kind of definitive input about the subject. If anyone is REALLY interested in the actual details of this summary, one has but to read this thread in its entirety, for all the lurid details are contained herein.
Well, I'm back!

Anyway, thanks again for reading this. Hope this finds you all doing well.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Next time your at the junk yard snag a regular round Ford coil and hook it up. They are usually pretty hot coils and it would be good at least for a test. You can probably get a used one for next to nothing....

That way your not laying out a lot of money for coil.

_________________
Aggressive Ted

http://cid-32f1e50ddb40a03c.photos.live ... %20Swinger


74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG

Hey Ted,
There isn't a junk yard within a fifty mile radius of here, and at the price of gasoline, and the MPG that Ms. American gets, for the cost of gas, I could buy another FD784X!

BUT, I have a bunch of REGULAR Ignition Coils here from Lorrie's OLD Points&Condenser Ignition. In fact one of them is BRAND NEW!

Would one of THEM work?

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

For a simple test to get her running, yes!
You can replace it later with a better coil.

Take a look at the one I am running now. Click on the red link to view pictures.
I used to run the stock coil 20 years ago, then switched to a Chrome MSD BLaster II, then a round chrome 3 ohm Pertronix so I could ditch the ballast resistor, the finally to a Pertonix 3 ohm 60,000 volt HEI style. The plugs stay nice and clean...... even on an old 1980 barn find for a $100. It has over 236,000 miles on it....

_________________
Aggressive Ted

http://cid-32f1e50ddb40a03c.photos.live ... %20Swinger


74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG

Hey Ted,
Alright.
Have found an FD784X NEW for under $40.00. May just go ahead and spring for that.
Looked at each and every JPG. VERY nicely done.
Noticed that you are using NGK, but they are NOT ZFR5Ns.
You've worked wonders with it. How long did it take to get it to this condition?

Anyway, have a problem putting the Dash back together.

Found the TWO Wires that had come loose from the Dimmer Switch and have them all connected again. BUT, now that it is ready to go back together, have got the Fuel Gauge Switch with a Switched Wire that I don't know where it came from. There is a Wire TO the Switch FROM the Fuse Panel, and know where it goes. Have a Wire coming FROM the Sending Unit in the Gas Tank, and know where it connects. And then there is this third Wire that is an orphan. It gets turned on and off by the Switch, but haven't the slightest idea of where to put it. It CAN'T go to Ground because THAT would short when the Switch is turned on to activate the Fuel Gauge. Will figure it out somehow.

Thanks for the information.

Be well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor