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| Am I asking too much? Motor plans. https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15282 |
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| Author: | DionR [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:29 pm ] |
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Quote: I have owned multiple fwd turbo cars of the 80's. and they are fun.. 300 hp out of a turbo 2.2 is an easy acheivement. the super 60 kit is a prime example of it. upgraded fuel pump //super 60 turbo// +40 injectors // remap of the computer to accomdate the air and fuel.. and it still has street manners. easily driven on street and decent fuel economy. if you get a custom calibration that set up can easily take you closer to 400 hp but it loses some of its street manners.
Can't argue with you. Problem is, it is still FWD.Quote: I just bought a 70 dart swinger and I am heading down the exact road as you. The only difference is I plan on going injected instead of carbed.
If I had the money and time, I would MegaSquirt it. In the end I might do that anyways. Part of the deal here is I want to see if I even like a turbo \6. Since this is an exploritory thing, I don't want to pour more money in it than I have to. If it works, then we will see where it goes.Quote: I also talked to a guy in wisconsin who tried to prove you could make as much power with carbs as injection on a fwd turbo car at 18 psi he was pushing raw fuel out the throttle linkage shafts into the engine compartment. he gave up and went back to injection but it was a cool car.
Brent on TurboMustangs.com is making well over 1000 hp with a single turbo and carb on a mid 300's sized V8 in a Mustang notch. He even claim's to get 20+ mpg out of it. I think carbs can work, but not if they aren't done right.Quote: I have not run my turbo dakota project so i can not attest to how hard it is to get them tuned right under boost yet // but i will be more than happy to discuss share any info i find out when the time comes.
Thanks, and I will look you up as I get closer. Make sure you let me know when you get yours running.
hope this helps out and good luck on your toy. |
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| Author: | flight704 [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:39 pm ] |
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vg that is a clean set up. very well done indeed. I hope mine looks that clean/.professional when completed |
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| Author: | flight704 [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:49 pm ] |
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dion r no problem. my turbo dakota toy should roll onto the dyno this spring for some testing and tuning. It will not be a powerhouse by comparison to what some of the fwd turbododge boys are doing now a days. but it will be fun none the less. The webers are going to be my achielles heel on this toy. which is why i am leaning hard to the megasquirt thing myself on the dart. The dart is just sitting till the dakota is finished up. right now just researching and acquiring the parts that i know i will need if i find them cheap enough. kind of hard to support 2 toy habits at once lol.. |
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| Author: | MJF [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Am I asking too much? Motor plans. |
| Author: | mcnoople [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:02 pm ] |
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Oh come on launching a front drive turbo manual is an excercise in annoyance and everyone could use use a little annoyance from time to time. Too low a rpm and bog too high and it screams off into the land of boost while you sit still. And the just right launch is hard on the clutch. The proper way to drive the TII is shift to 2nd early and ride it out to about 50 skip straight to 5th and pretend you have a wide geared 3 spd. They are slow off the line but from 15 mph up they are real quick |
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| Author: | mcm95403 [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:53 pm ] |
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I happen to have a Super 60 setup (300 hp) in my 89 Spirit with a 3.85 geared trans and it's pretty driveable - AS LONG AS IT'S POINTED STRAIGHT DOWN A DRY ROAD! It will spin the tires in 3rd at 60 if you mail the throttle. Pretty fun overall, but still, it's a FWD car. I'm thinking alone the same lines as you, but with a SERIOUS weight loss job on the car. I've put the Spirit on a truck scale and it weighed 3020 pounds with a full tank of gas. My 84 Rampage was only 2460 with a full tank. Twenty years ago, I weighed my 71 Demon at Fremont drag strip and it was 2860 - that was with an automatic, front discs, and 8 3/4 and 15" steel wheels. A friend of mine had a 72 Demon DRAG CAR (500" Hemi, Lenco 4 speed, 14.5" slicks etc.) back then and it was 2600 pounds even with 2 gallons of gas. So, since a slant six is about 200 pounds lighter than a hemi and a T-5 is much lighter than a Lenco, and an 8 1/4 rearend will do fine for 350 hp and is much lighter than a Dana 60, I don't think it would be a problem to get an A-body down to 2600 pounds without the driver. Just some creative application of light weight parts and stripping out any thing that's not needed. I think it would be pretty easy to do a 300 - 350 HP 225 that was turbo'd and intercooled. The turbo cars actually get better mileage at higher speeds becasue you're running at slight boost - maybe 1 or 2 psi - so the engine isn't having to work to draw the mixture in. You've got a sound idea, but it would save you time and money to just to it right the first time and not mess around with the turbo carb thing - those setups just never did work well, even when Paxton used pressurized boxes for the carb with special floats that wouldn't crush under boost, etc. Marc |
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| Author: | mcm95403 [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:53 pm ] |
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I happen to have a Super 60 setup (300 hp) in my 89 Spirit with a 3.85 geared trans and it's pretty driveable - AS LONG AS IT'S POINTED STRAIGHT DOWN A DRY ROAD! It will spin the tires in 3rd at 60 if you nail the throttle. Pretty fun overall, but still, it's a FWD car. I'm thinking alone the same lines as you, but with a SERIOUS weight loss job on the car. I've put the Spirit on a truck scale and it weighed 3020 pounds with a full tank of gas. My 84 Rampage was only 2460 with a full tank. Twenty years ago, I weighed my 71 Demon at Fremont drag strip and it was 2860 - that was with an automatic, front discs, and 8 3/4 and 15" steel wheels. A friend of mine had a 72 Demon DRAG CAR (500" Hemi, Lenco 4 speed, 14.5" slicks etc.) back then and it was 2600 pounds even with 2 gallons of gas. So, since a slant six is about 200 pounds lighter than a hemi and a T-5 is much lighter than a Lenco, and an 8 1/4 rearend will do fine for 350 hp and is much lighter than a Dana 60, I don't think it would be a problem to get an A-body down to 2600 pounds without the driver. Just some creative application of light weight parts and stripping out any thing that's not needed. I think it would be pretty easy to do a 300 - 350 HP 225 that was turbo'd and intercooled. The turbo cars actually get better mileage at higher speeds becasue you're running at slight boost - maybe 1 or 2 psi - so the engine isn't having to work to draw the mixture in. You've got a sound idea, but it would save you time and money to just to it right the first time and not mess around with the turbo carb thing - those setups just never did work well, even when Paxton used pressurized boxes for the carb with special floats that wouldn't crush under boost, etc. Marc |
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| Author: | flight704 [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:05 pm ] |
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mcm = thanks for the affirmation of my point. your spirit sounds like a fun toy. hint hint hint try not to let the right foot get too heavy when cornering in a fwd  I think a 300 to 350hp turbo /6 in a light car like a dart would be a blast to drive and still get decent fuel mileage if specced out right. probably wouldnt do too bad at the strip either with a little traction off the line it should fly. hence my signature (boost IS a substitute for cubic inches) |
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| Author: | DionR [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:20 pm ] |
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Quote: I also talked to a guy in wisconsin who tried to prove you could make as much power with carbs as injection on a fwd turbo car at 18 psi he was pushing raw fuel out the throttle linkage shafts into the engine compartment. he gave up and went back to injection but it was a cool car.
Just occured to me that he probably needed to boost reference the throttle shafts. I may have the wrong term, but in effect you take boost from above the carb (no fuel) and use it to keep fuel from pushing out the throttle shafts. From what I've read, you don't need it at lower boost levels, but you do at higher ones, i.e. this guy's situation.Just a thought. |
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| Author: | DionR [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:22 pm ] |
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Quote: You've got a sound idea, but it would save you time and money to just to it right the first time and not mess around with the turbo carb thing - those setups just never did work well, even when Paxton used pressurized boxes for the carb with special floats that wouldn't crush under boost, etc.
I bet there are some guys on TurboMustangs.com that would strongly disagree with you. Marc 
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| Author: | Matadem [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:46 pm ] |
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http://www.turbomustangs.com/car_images ... Turbo8.jpg http://www.turbomustangs.com/projectcar ... rent6.html http://www.franticfly.com/DSC_3950.jpg  
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| Author: | flight704 [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:29 am ] |
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Quote:
Just occured to me that he probably needed to boost reference the throttle shafts. I may have the wrong term, but in effect you take boost from above the carb (no fuel) and use it to keep fuel from pushing out the throttle shafts. From what I've read, you don't need it at lower boost levels, but you do at higher ones, i.e. this guy's situation.
with webers you tap the vent hole on the front of the carbs to and pipe boost in there to equalize the float bowl so the boost doesnt feed the fuel backwards. but that does not assist the out side of the carb. only way to do that is encase it in an airtight box and fill it with boost.Just a thought. here is a pic of my set up mocked up on the motor. no polishing or painting done in this pic so be gentle  you can see the 2 lines leaving the boost block and going to the front of the carbs near the top of the left venturi. |
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| Author: | flight704 [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:33 am ] |
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here is my free webspace if you want to see the rest of it. dial up beware lots of pics http://home.earthlink.net/~dl1989/ hope you like it. |
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| Author: | mcm95403 [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:20 am ] |
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Cool pics on your site! Yeah, the Spirit is a fun sleeper - no one EVER expects it to go good. Check it out here: www.marcmedina.com Personally, I think the 2.2 8 valve head is about the same as the /6 head - I've ported both and I think they're equally poor, especially in stock form. A 2.5 is 153 cubes (38.25 cubes per cylinder) and a 225 is 37.5 cubes per cylinder, so that is close enough to be the same - at least to me. So, if you built a tubular ram intake for the /6 that was like the 2 piece Shelby intake, you could use a doubled core T2 intercooler for a short, direct feed right into the TB (the TB opening would face forward right into the intercooler outlet. The main thing would be proper turbo sizing. The Super 60 is a really great running setup and MAN can it flow some air! I don't know if it would be a good choice for a 225, I'd have to talk to my turbo guy (Chris at www.turbosunleashed.com) about that. You could use the standard Bosch injectors that the 2.2/2.5 guys use (+20's or +40's) and just use the Megasquirt computer setup to run it all. Overall, it's really pretty simple. I had looked into this 20 years ago, but the EFI stuff just wasn't around then like it is now. As for the rest of the mods, weight savings everywhere you can is the way to go. Synthetic lubes, flush mount a light weight grill, light weight wheels, aluminum drive shaft. They say the best way to lighten a car is to take out 1 pound 100 times instead of 100 pounds once. All the little things really add up. Of course, as the car gets lighter, you can have lighter (less stiff) torsion bars and leafs (Summit carries fiberglass single leafs for roundy round cars), and the brakes can be lighter 'cause you're stopping less weight. The rear end can be lighter 'cause there's less load on it. Replace the glass with polycarbonate (except the windshield for safety), eliminate the roll up rear 1/4 windows, replace the bumpers (and their brackets), fenders, hood, trunk lid, and maybe even the doors with light weigh replacements (I'm teaching myself how to mold the originals so I can make either Carbon fiber or Aramid fiber replacements). You see where I'm headed here. The main problem that you normally run into is that so many people on the web think that if something costs more than $50 it's too expensive to do. A little progressive "out of the box" thinking will get you a long way, and from the pictures on your site, you've already got that. Oh, and by the way, if you can locate an aluminum /6 block, it will save another 80 pounds in car weight. Then there's an aluminum radiator from a late model car, replacing the inner fenderwells with carbon fiber (should only be done if you can stiffen the upper shock mounts) and then there's replacing the stock k member with a tubular one, converting to rack and pinion steering and coil overs - those 3 changes are common on drag cars and drop a significant amount of weight from the front end. If you've ever pulled a complete front grille assembly out of one of these cars, you know what they weigh - and how muck of that can be eliminated. See why I think a 2600 pound A body should be fairly easy to do? If you want to talk on the phone about this stuff, PM me with your number and I can call you on the weekend - free long distance on my cell. Thanks, Marc |
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| Author: | DionR [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:17 pm ] |
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[quote="flight704]with webers you tap the vent hole on the front of the carbs to and pipe boost in there to equalize the float bowl so the boost doesnt feed the fuel backwards. but that does not assist the out side of the carb. only way to do that is encase it in an airtight box and fill it with boost.[quote] What I am talking about is machining grooves in the base of the carb and drilling holes up into the throttle shafts (but not into the shafts themselves) so that boost is blowing into the carb at the shafts as well as out from the venturis. Used to be a picture of it on the Hanger18 site that the TurboMustang guys reference when modding a Holley for blowthru, but I don't think it is there anymore or I would send you to it. I will keep looking, though. |
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