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The late-model Chrysler alternator conversion thread
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28160		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  Jopapa [ Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
...better output at idle and low engine speeds...
Oh yeah that too...
Author:  MichaelS [ Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:57 am ]
Post subject: 
The original is only 35 amps, wow didn't know. Would the higher amp use more power from the engine or maybe less because it wouldn't need to kick in as much?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Energy cannot be created, just transformed. Any given level of current output from the alternator requires a given level of torque input from the engine. So no, there's no advantage or disadvantage in terms of torque load. You do have to be careful when installing a higher-output alternator, because if you just toss it in the car, you run the very real risk of doing extensive and expensive damage to the car's wiring harness, ammeter, and other parts in case the alternator produces high amounts of current (giving a jump start, charging a faulty battery, etc.). There are various ways of upgrading or modifying the charging system wiring to allow the safe use of a higher-output alternator.

Also keep in mind that "only 35 amps" was enough for these cars for many years, and still is enough, as long as there's been no significant increase in power consumption by the addition of more or higher-power electrical accessories. The alternator will put out only however much current is called for, whether its maximum capacity is 27 amps or 87 amps.
Author:  MichaelS [ Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would the 35 amp be enough for the HEI conversion with a MSD or simular coil?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Probably.
Author:  AnotherSix [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:20 pm ]
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I was just at the the parts store looking at these alternators. One thing I noticed was that the test sheets with both the new, made in Taiwan NSA and what looks to be a very good rebuild showed outputs of 117 and 123 amps max. These were both the 90 amp version. It makes sense that they might only make or stock the higher amp stator, rather than have to have both a 90 and 120 version.

This might be something to keep in mind when planning your charging wire upgrade. I am thinking at least 8 gauge all the way.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I was just at the the parts store looking at these alternators. One thing I noticed was that the test sheets with both the new, made in Taiwan NSA and what looks to be a very good rebuild
Bzzt! Strike one. Bzzt! Strike two.

The new-from-China units are trash. And yeah, the "remanufactured" junk looks pretty in the box, but it's still junk.
Author:  AnotherSix [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Dan, did you miss my point all together or are you ignoring it on a quest to be right when nothing is wrong?

Parts from Taiwan junk? Really? Wow! Who would have thought! Did I say I bought one? On the other hand some people will and they may work out ok for them. Like you, I am picky about these things and irritated with the overall lack of quality in the market and even more so about the why and how.

Parts from a local rebuilder stocked at one of the last, real auto parts stores in the area, probably about as good as it's going to get unless you buy a new Denso or find a used one in very good condition.

In any event, even a "junk" alternator that puts out over 100 amps will probably do it long enough to fry some wiring if it has the chance. The way things go, it would likey fail only AFTER burning up the harness.


I refrained from commenting on one of your last, incorrect posts. Here you go. As far as energy only being able to be converted, correct. As far as that being a proof that a modern Denso alternator is no more efficient than an old chrysler alternator, FLAT WRONG! Did you consider how much of the mechanical energy is turned into heat with each type? Would you assume it is the same for both? How about the obvious fact that the Denso has a smaller diameter and lighter rotor? Modern engineering does win out sometimes.

Almost everything we humans do with using energy sees most of the waste in the form of heat. It is the most common form of energy in this world, and what we seem to end up with the most of when seeking other forms. Obvious, but this applys to playing with cars whether it is mileage, power, braking or electrical. Even shock absorbers do their job by indirectly converting mechanical energy into heat.

I would not do the alternator conversion for that reason alone, and probably most cars don't need it at all. I don't imagine that the mileage would show an improvement for any reason other than having higher voltage at low rpms. Myself I can see needing a peak of no more than 70 amps when I am done with everything, and it's all running at the same time. Electric fans and fog lights are the two big items, a little more for a stereo and the ignition.

On my 65 I just used a later 65 amp chrysler alternator and regulator. If someone does not need the amps, a later standard alternator and regulator would be a fine low dollar upgrade to an older car and there would be no ammeter wiring changes to worry about. If you need more, it is about as easy to go with the Denso, so why not? This is all about utility or hobby anyway. Keep it simple, make it work and try to have a good time at it.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Dan, did you miss my point all together
Nope...I spoke up in hopes of preventing an unhappy experience sometime down the line when this thread is old, someone inexperienced reads it, and decides to put a new-from-China or "remanufactured" alternator in his car. That's all. No attack on you or your info was intended, sorry that's how it came across for you.
Quote:
I refrained from commenting on one of your last, incorrect posts
Why? I'm human, just like everyone else. I make mistakes, just like everyone else. If you see me make one, please speak up!
Quote:
As far as energy only being able to be converted, correct. As far as that being a proof that a modern Denso alternator is no more efficient than an old chrysler alternator, FLAT WRONG!
I agree with you. I haven't exactly claimed that a modern Denso (or any other brand) alternator is no more efficient than an old Chrysler alternator, though I can see how you might infer that from my previous post.
Quote:
Did you consider how much of the mechanical energy is turned into heat with each type? Would you assume it is the same for both?
Respectively: Yes and essentially yes. The improvements in bearings would have to be much larger than they practicably could be in order for there to be a significant (=real) fuel savings from this vector. That is, in order to make a significant improvement in torque load, either the bearings in the older-type alternator would have to have unrealistically high frictional losses (which is not the case), or the bearings in the newer-type alternator would have to have unrealistically low frictional losses (also not the case).
Quote:
How about the obvious fact that the Denso has a smaller diameter and lighter rotor?
That makes the Nippondenso alternator easier to accelerate, but not easier to spin at a steady speed. Which sounds like an advantage any time we accelerate, and it is, but most or all of that advantage is cancelled when we decelerate, because the higher-mass rotor of an older-type alternator is essentially a heavier flywheel.
Quote:
Modern engineering does win out sometimes.
Absolutely agreed. I like the later-type alternators. They work very well. I've never said anything contrary. I also like HEI, I'm a big fan of fuel injection, headlamps have come a long way since the sealed beam, today's tires kick the snot out of yesterday's, the cheapest engine oil you can buy today is vastly superior to the most expensive stuff you could buy a decade ago...
Quote:
I would not do the alternator conversion for that reason alone, and probably most cars don't need it at all. I don't imagine that the mileage would show an improvement for any reason other than having higher voltage at low rpms. On my 65 I just used a later 65 amp chrysler alternator and regulator. If someone does not need the amps, a later standard alternator and regulator would be a fine low dollar upgrade to an older car and there would be no ammeter wiring changes to worry about.
Agreed on all of this.
Author:  rftroy [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  HIgh amp fusible link; or fuse?
I am also retrofitting a Denso 120 amp alternator, p/n 211-0121, for a 1990-91 D150 truck with a v groove pulley.
Using 1/0 and 4 awg wire and bypassing the ammeter.

What to do about fusing between the alternator and the battery? I could get the fusible link for the 120 A truck application, but I heard on another site that later models used a fuse rather than the fusible link.

If true, does anyone have a FSM wiring diagram which calls out the correct model and amp rating of fuse?

Thanks,
Bob
Author:  Jopapa [ Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Probably.
Works just fine. I'm still using the 35A with my HEI and MSD Blaster 2 (pre-China outsourcing), and they're both running off a 30A relay so they get full battery power.

AnotherSix, I'll be using a 2AWG welding cable with copper connectors soldered on, for both the charge lead and the chassis and engine ground. I use it for the high power leads in my Toyota with its 120A alternator and it's great. Looks nice and clean, too :D
Also, the instrument/interior power will get a 4AWG cable to power everything inside, and all high high draw stuff (headlights, horns, etc.) will run off relays so they will also get full batter power, same as with my ignition system.

Rftroy, I would recommend a fusible link. That's the pretty-much agreed-on method for "fusing" a high power lead. Since they're used to protect the wiring itself, IIRC the correct way to size it is to get one size smaller (larger in AWG) than the wiring you're using. Like since I'll be using a 2AWG cable, I'd want to find a 4AWG fusible link lead; since I'll be using 4AWG cable into my interior, I'd want 6AWG fusible link.
Author:  ArchLAB [ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  1967 BCuda & A 1988 Ramcharger Alternator
My Bro-In-Law gave me an Alternator out of his '88 ramcharger sometime back. As such, with the trouble I'm having on my '67 BCuda, I'd just as soon go to the newer (1988) style alternator. My question is this: Is this Alternator the same, or similar to the 1989 Diplomat? If so, perhaps I can do the same conversion you were discussing?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:29 am ]
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'88 should be the last year of the finned-case Chrysler-built alternator. If so it'll swap right onto the '67 brackets. Are you using a '67-style voltage regulator?
Author:  ArchLAB [ Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Hiya 'SSD'.
My Voltage Regulator in the '67 BCuda looks like this: Image

I believe that is the 1967 style (although I think this is a later model, solid-state type).

I do have another one that looks like this Image
With the exception that it appears to be a generic because it has no markings & is polished metal in 'color'. Is this a correct for the later model alternators?

Thanks
Author:  ArchLAB [ Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Sorry, let's try that again. The 2nd VR looks like this (Presto!):

Image
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