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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:14 pm 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:24 pm
Posts: 376
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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One of my above questions asked if the car would start if the ballast resistor was bad. Nobody answered the question. Prior SS posts suggested the 73 and up 225s would not crank if the ballast resistor was bad. I also have not replaced the coil. That question has also not been answered.
Please realize that questions do not always get answered immediately. While many of us check this board regularly, answers aren't always given right away.
As for the ballast resistor, if you suspect it is bad, the best way to test it would be to snag a multimeter for relatively cheap and check the connections. Your FSM should have the tests for the coil as well; I know the one for my '65 Dart does - however, I don't know if that same test would apply to your vehicle. If you don't have an FSM, please, get one as soon as possible - it is an invaluble resource.
However, in the thread that SlantSixDan referenced, he made this remark:
Quote:
Since the ballast resistor is bypassed during engine cranking, it seems very unlikely that's going to solve the problem. Look for faulty wiring in the ignition circuit. You can very easily test for this: run a test lead from battery positive or alternator B+ to the coil +, then arc the starter with a screwdriver. If the engine starts and runs, find and fix the wiring faults.
So perhaps the ballast isn't the best place to be looking right now.
I understand you're frustrated, and I know that some members, such as steponmebbbboom, can come off as harsh at points. But a) he does have several good points and b) he is trying to help you, and help you help yourself.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:30 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:47 pm
Posts: 236
Location: Mandeville, LA, USA
Car Model:
A four-stroke engine is characterized by four strokes, or reciprocating movements of a piston in a cylinder:

1.) intake (induction) stroke
2.) compression stroke
3.) power stroke
4.) exhaust stroke
In the example I looked at (Google search), the right blue side was the intake and the left yellow side was the exhaust. The cylinder wall is a thin sleeve surrounded by cooling water. There was an actual animated movement of the four cycles.

The cycle begins at top dead center (TDC), when the piston is furthest away from the axis of the crankshaft. On the intake or induction stroke (1.) of the piston, the piston descends from the top of the cylinder, reducing the pressure inside the cylinder. A mixture of fuel and air is forced (by atmospheric or greater pressure) into the cylinder through the intake (inlet) port. The intake (inlet) valve (or valves) then close(s), and the (2.) compression stroke compresses the fuel–air mixture.

The air–fuel mixture is then ignited near the end of the compression stroke, usually by a spark plug (for a gasoline or Otto cycle engine) or by the heat and pressure of compression (for a Diesel cycle or compression ignition engine). (3.) The resulting pressure of burning gases pushes the piston through the power stroke. In the exhaust stroke, the piston pushes the products of combustion from the cylinder through an exhaust valve or valves. (4.)

Watching my #1 rockers, I rotated the damper by hand waiting for the exhaust valve to open (go down). As soon as the exhaust valve comes back up (no pressure on the exhaust rocker), the intake valve begins to move down (beginning of the intake stroke).

I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE TDC. Please correct me if I am wrong. Very important for me to know this is correct.

Assuming this to be TDC, then currently my rotor points to the #1 tower.

I have verified that all sparkplug wires are connected to the proper tower on the distributor. (Starting with rotor positioned under #1 tower of cap and rotating distributor clockwise 1-5-3-6-2-4) Engine still hasn't fired up.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:39 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:49 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: Lubbock, TX
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Sometimes its a pain in the ass getting the distributer in right after disturbing the engine. If your getting a backfire your getting spark, so your close. Don't know what else to say except keep playing with the distributer position and make sure the #1 piston is TDC. Your dampener ring could also have slipped, causing the timing mark to be off.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:44 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:27 am
Posts: 536
Location: Rawson,Australia
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hello,
I see in your last post that you said:
Watching my #1 rockers, I rotated the damper by hand waiting for the exhaust valve to open (go down). As soon as the exhaust valve comes back up (no pressure on the exhaust rocker), the intake valve begins to move down (beginning of the intake stroke). I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE TDC. Please correct me if I am wrong. Very important for me to know this is correct.

that is not exactly right.
while you are watching the rockers,(and the second one from the front of the engine is the intake),you must continue to rotate the engine until the inlet finishes its "open" time and then fully closes again. THIS is the compression stroke that you are looking for and your timing mark should be approaching very close to your TDC mark.
as you will see,when the inlet starts to open,your timing must be 180 deg out.
hang in there,you are very close to success. :D

Merry Christmas from Australia !
regards,Rod :D


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:36 am 
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Turbo EFI

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:57 am
Posts: 1818
Car Model:
did you have the timing chain off???? is it timed proper???? last time i rebuilt my slant , i used a chain set that has multi-setting on it and didn't notice the key way and chain marks are in different places not lined up with each other.....spent serval days trying to start it....going thru all the things you are


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:06 am 
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3 Deuce Weber
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:56 pm
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Quote:
that is not exactly right.
while you are watching the rockers,(and the second one from the front of the engine is the intake),you must continue to rotate the engine until the inlet finishes its "open" time and then fully closes again. THIS is the compression stroke that you are looking for and your timing mark should be approaching very close to your TDC mark.
as you will see,when the inlet starts to open,your timing must be 180 deg out.
Nice catch, I didn't even see that he was off by a whole stroke!! That def. explains a bit.

74DS: Hang in there, you are def. close, remember that you *may* have to manipulate the bottom screw on the dizzy mount bracket to get the timing perfect, but it should be able to start and run if its towards the middle (like you stated in an earlier post). This is something that having a timing light will be very handy to help you set it up right. You can probably get a cheap one for about $50, but they can get much more expensive than that really quick. A cheap one will work for what you need it for though and if you take care of it will last you a long while.. Im sure some of the others can give you a recommended brand of cheaper light.
Anyway, kick a$$ on getting her to fire!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:22 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13095
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Ditto what walpolla and surfrodder said. I missed that too. You want to wait for the intake valve, the second from the front of the engine, to open and then close. This will put you at TDC on the compression stroke.

Timing the motor to TDC when the exhaust valve has just closed and the intake valve is just about to open times it to TDC on the exhaust stroke. This is one "stroke" off from where you want it to be.

Go back and spin the motor until the #1 intake opens and closes, then put the timing mark at TDC. Repeat the process of putting the rotor under the #1 spark tower, and fire away (hopefully).

_________________
Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Board Sponsor
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Salem, Oregon
Car Model: 1984 D100 Shorty Custom
One thing to be definitely aware of, is that some times the outer damper ring will slip. Yours sounds like its mostly spot-on, but it may not be forever. If you run into this situation later on, be wary of the TDC mark on the damper.


You are almost there! :D


~THOR~

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:10 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:45 pm
Posts: 1903
Location: Hamilton the STEEL CITY, ON
Car Model:
Quote:
A four-stroke engine is characterized by four strokes, or reciprocating movements of a piston in a cylinder:

1.) intake (induction) stroke
2.) compression stroke
3.) power stroke
4.) exhaust stroke
In the example I looked at (Google search), the right blue side was the intake and the left yellow side was the exhaust. The cylinder wall is a thin sleeve surrounded by cooling water. There was an actual animated movement of the four cycles.

The cycle begins at top dead center (TDC), when the piston is furthest away from the axis of the crankshaft. On the intake or induction stroke (1.) of the piston, the piston descends from the top of the cylinder, reducing the pressure inside the cylinder. A mixture of fuel and air is forced (by atmospheric or greater pressure) into the cylinder through the intake (inlet) port. The intake (inlet) valve (or valves) then close(s), and the (2.) compression stroke compresses the fuel–air mixture.

The air–fuel mixture is then ignited near the end of the compression stroke, usually by a spark plug (for a gasoline or Otto cycle engine) or by the heat and pressure of compression (for a Diesel cycle or compression ignition engine). (3.) The resulting pressure of burning gases pushes the piston through the power stroke. In the exhaust stroke, the piston pushes the products of combustion from the cylinder through an exhaust valve or valves. (4.)

Watching my #1 rockers, I rotated the damper by hand waiting for the exhaust valve to open (go down). As soon as the exhaust valve comes back up (no pressure on the exhaust rocker), the intake valve begins to move down (beginning of the intake stroke).

I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE TDC. Please correct me if I am wrong. Very important for me to know this is correct.

Assuming this to be TDC, then currently my rotor points to the #1 tower.

I have verified that all sparkplug wires are connected to the proper tower on the distributor. (Starting with rotor positioned under #1 tower of cap and rotating distributor clockwise 1-5-3-6-2-4) Engine still hasn't fired up.
Thank-you for posting this in-between tantrums. do you see now why i did this? you need to make the critical connection between what you are seeing and why it is happening. there are two TDCs in the four-stroke cycle, those are the power stroke, where you want the plug to fire, and "on-the-rock" where both valves are slightly open and exhaust gases are flowing out and air/fuel is breezing-in. of course the air/fuel will ignite and backfire out the intake if the plug fires while the valves are open, do you see?

if the engine still does not start even when the engine is doing what you now think it should, then we can start looking for faulty components. don't rush the basics!

_________________
I've been calling it as i see it for my entire life and that's not about to change. Take it or leave it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:49 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:49 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: Lubbock, TX
Car Model:
Yikes, totaly missed that also.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:47 pm
Posts: 236
Location: Mandeville, LA, USA
Car Model:
Quote:
Ditto what walpolla and surfrodder said. I missed that too. You want to wait for the intake valve, the second from the front of the engine, to open and then close. This will put you at TDC on the compression stroke.

Timing the motor to TDC when the exhaust valve has just closed and the intake valve is just about to open times it to TDC on the exhaust stroke. This is one "stroke" off from where you want it to be.

Go back and spin the motor until the #1 intake opens and closes, then put the timing mark at TDC. Repeat the process of putting the rotor under the #1 spark tower, and fire away (hopefully).
This is the kind of answer I was looking for from you guys. I AM APPARANTELY AT TDC ON THE EXHAUST STROKE. I went out and rotated the damper watching the intake valve open and then close. As soon as it closed I kept rotating the damper (it had a ways to go) until the tab on the damper came up on the timing mark. I stopped. I hope this is TDC on the compression stroke. Then I moved the rotor to the #1 distributor rotor. Please tell me this is correct. The battery had less than 12 volts. (A week of trying to crank has weakened the battery.)

My son will recharge the battery tomorrow, and I'll try then. It is now midnight and too late to do anything tonight. I keep you posted. Thanks for the many replies and directions. Yes I will get this car to crank.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:30 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13095
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Sounds like you have the motor at TDC on the compression stroke, which is where it should be.

Charge that battery, cross your fingers, and standby to slowly rotate the distributor as the motor is cranked.

Good luck and keep us posted!

_________________
Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:06 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:27 am
Posts: 536
Location: Rawson,Australia
Car Model:
Quote:
Quote:
Ditto what walpolla and surfrodder said. I missed that too. You want to wait for the intake valve, the second from the front of the engine, to open and then close. This will put you at TDC on the compression stroke.

Timing the motor to TDC when the exhaust valve has just closed and the intake valve is just about to open times it to TDC on the exhaust stroke. This is one "stroke" off from where you want it to be.

Go back and spin the motor until the #1 intake opens and closes, then put the timing mark at TDC. Repeat the process of putting the rotor under the #1 spark tower, and fire away (hopefully).
This is the kind of answer I was looking for from you guys. I AM APPARANTELY AT TDC ON THE EXHAUST STROKE. I went out and rotated the damper watching the intake valve open and then close. As soon as it closed I kept rotating the damper (it had a ways to go) until the tab on the damper came up on the timing mark. I stopped. I hope this is TDC on the compression stroke. Then I moved the rotor to the #1 distributor rotor. Please tell me this is correct. The battery had less than 12 volts. (A week of trying to crank has weakened the battery.)

My son will recharge the battery tomorrow, and I'll try then. It is now midnight and too late to do anything tonight. I keep you posted. Thanks for the many replies and directions. Yes I will get this car to crank.
hello,
that sounds right.I have money on it starting this time.
from what you describe,you have TDC on the compression stroke correctly located.
best of luck.

regards,Rod :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:41 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 580
Location: Austin Texas
Car Model:
Quote:
Watching my #1 rockers, I rotated the damper by hand waiting for the exhaust valve to open (go down). As soon as the exhaust valve comes back up (no pressure on the exhaust rocker), the intake valve begins to move down (beginning of the intake stroke).

I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE TDC. Please correct me if I am wrong. Very important for me to know this is correct.
There are TWO "TDCs" and you have the wrong one. When the exhaust valve closes and the intake immediately opens, that is TDC of the INTAKE stroke, and not where the spark plug should fire.

If you go another 1/2 turn of the crank (approximately) the intake valve will close. This is the beginning of the compression stroke. Now go another 1/2 turn (the TDC marker on the harmonic balancer should again line up with the 0 timing mark) and you should be at TDC of the compression stroke, which is where you want the plug to fire. BOTH valves should be closed.

I would also advise that you do a very simple ignition system test:

Pull the coil wire off at the distributor end and lay it near a grounded piece of metal. Have a helper crank the engine, you should see a steady pulsing of sparks from the wire to the grounded metal. If you do, then your coil, distributor, and ignition system are all OK with the possible exception of the ballast resistor (which isn't in the circuit during cranking). Test the ballast resistor with an ohmmeter- if it reads 5 ohms or less, its fine and you can stop worrying about ignition and worry about timing and fuel.

Also be aware that your CAM timing could be off if you made an error in installing the timing chain. You can get the ignition timing perfect, but if the valve events are incorrect the engine won't run, or will run terribly.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:45 pm
Posts: 1903
Location: Hamilton the STEEL CITY, ON
Car Model:
Quote:
Quote:
Ditto what walpolla and surfrodder said. I missed that too. You want to wait for the intake valve, the second from the front of the engine, to open and then close. This will put you at TDC on the compression stroke.

Timing the motor to TDC when the exhaust valve has just closed and the intake valve is just about to open times it to TDC on the exhaust stroke. This is one "stroke" off from where you want it to be.

Go back and spin the motor until the #1 intake opens and closes, then put the timing mark at TDC. Repeat the process of putting the rotor under the #1 spark tower, and fire away (hopefully).
This is the kind of answer I was looking for from you guys.

(A week of trying to crank has weakened the battery.)

Yes I will get this car to crank.
LOL, whine all you like about the bumpy ride once you get there. You still havent sorted it out yet and youre the one who needs help here, not us.
Quote:
Pull the coil wire off at the distributor end and lay it near a grounded piece of metal. Have a helper crank the engine, you should see a steady pulsing of sparks from the wire to the grounded metal. If you do, then your coil, distributor, and ignition system are all OK with the possible exception of the ballast resistor (which isn't in the circuit during cranking).
be advised 440_Magnum is referring to the starter turning the engine over here. if you insist on passive-aggressively continuing to use the term "cranking" incorrectly, you will only confuse yourself and those who are trying to help you. it sure isnt going to hurt my feelings, and it SURE isnt inspiring me to be kinder to you. Good Luck, i am sure you will get it running shortly if you dont lose it on too many more people.

One more thing, since you did not know how to index the distributor correctly, you may also have adjusted the valve lash while the valves were "on-the-rock" in which case they will be very loose and contribute to your running problem. they need to be on TDC compression stroke for the cylinder you are adjusting so both intake and exhaust are at base circle because at the other TDC the valve overlap will be hanging them both open slightly. you may even hop a couple pushrods out of the rockers and bend them.

Youre welcome...

_________________
I've been calling it as i see it for my entire life and that's not about to change. Take it or leave it.


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