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MoparMuscle Gibberish
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Author:  Bren67Cuda904 [ Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MoparMuscle Giberish
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Just had a look through a copy of an older MoparMuscle Magazine.........
Swapping your slant for Big block power - I quote "building a slant six with even the power of a mild V8 will forgo reliability" and "It was built with efficiency not power in mind"
I don't think they are so far off with that statement.
Nowdays a mild small block is making 325-380 horsepower and mild big blocks produce 380-435 horsepower easily along with ridiculous amounts of torque.
I would think that by the time you build a slant to either level it would absolutely decrease its reliability/drivability.
Notice that you where unheard even here. The truth was totally ignored. You would also find that you'd be still unheard if one where to send a link.
Author:  daniel_depetro [ Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Are you saying I am ignoring the truth?


I appreciate all my cars for their unique aspects.

I like our fully loaded 2000 Hyundai Tiburon for its lightweght (2,680 lbs. with ALL fluids topped off including fuel and all options functioning correctly), fantastic handling, and unique looks. Even with an automatic it is quite spirited (I have modded it) and still gets 34 MPGs on a highway trip.

I like My slant six Duster because stock parts are usually free or extremely cheap to buy. Most guys can'y give a slant away. It also does ok in the fuel economy department too.

Our small block A-bodies are on the same page as the slant six. With a 360 they run fantastic and are super cheap to build. Most people don't want a 318/360 anymore then they want a slant six. A good running 318/360 can be had for $150-400.00.

The Big block cars are still my favorites and are a real hoot to drive. It's too bad most people don't drive the original HP cars anymore. Sure the HP & HP2 engines are pricey sometimes, but not always. I still pick up early (1968-71) engines for $350-600.00 in running condition. They usually aren't HPs but that is nothing more then a simple header swap and aluminum intake manifold can't make up for. Most people swap out the cameshaft anyways so now your even further ahead. Even the later engines arent that underpowered with a good intake, carb & headers in my opinion. 383s & 400s are even more plentiful and are a little cheaper.
Stuffing one into an A-body can be a bit more challenging, but still can be done without much cost if you do some planning and wait for the right deals.

Personally I do not think any one of the above routes is more expensive then any of the others if performance is your goal.

A big block will work with some conversion engine mounts, HP exhaust manifolds and other cheap parts. Even stock they make great power.
A small block can be cheap to buy, easily be bolted in, and with minor bolt ons have awesome results.
A slant six fits easily and are cheap to buy, but don't make much power stock. In fact to get any real power out of a slant a lot of work needs to be done. Ported head with oversize valves, head & block shaving, blah, blah, blah.
Author:  VG-265 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I dont think they were being hard on the slant, just realistic...
They didn't say the slant was bad, just was going to lose reliability at the power levels easily obtained with a V8

If you want 450 hp, don't build a slant, build a bigblock (or whatever)
A 450 hp slant is not going to be reliable unless some type of forced induction is used.

The 230 HP example used is about what a '69 318 was rated at.
Put both engines in '69 Darts with a 904 and whatever gears are needed to suit the camshaft.
The 318 was factory fitted with 2.76, the slant will probably want 3.55 or more.

The fuel economy of the slant has little chance of being any better than the 318 at 75 mph on the highway in this case.

The slant is great, I love them (except when replace the manifold gasket on one fitted with headers and a Hyper pak)
But I also am aware of the limitations.
A 225 is not a 340 or a 426.
Author:  Bren67Cuda904 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:24 am ]
Post subject: 
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Are you saying I am ignoring the truth?

No I agree with you 100%. I just found it interesting that your point was ignored on this forum.
Author:  440_Magnum [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:01 am ]
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I can't resist chiming in on this one. I read this forum a lot, but I don't even *OWN* a slant-six. I own two 440s, a 318, a Jeep 4.0, a PT Cruiser 2.4 (wife's), and a 1949 Plymouth Club Coupe with a flathead six.

So why do I hang around here? Because you guys are probably the most creative, self-sufficient, and best-armed with basic mechanical knowledge subset of the Mopar crowd that I've found. Yes, there are plenty of smart big-block guys out there, but they don't gather in a forum like this, because its so much easier (relatively speaking) to just "cookbook" together a hot big-block. I would give ANYTHING if there were a big-block Mopar forum as dedicated to finding creative and innovative solutions as the people here are. I tend to think like a slant-6 owner even though I own big-blocks because I don't want to just go drop big $$$ on race-oriented parts and trust that the recipe works for my application. I'd much rather read Doc's Twiggy and Raquel builds and get myself thinking about applying the same principles to my 440s.

So don't worry when the magazines dis the slant. Relish it. Otherwise you'll find yourself living in a world where everyone just says, "send it to Hughes and let 'em build it." Not a knock against Hughes... just not the way I want to do things.

For the average non-technical car owner, MM's advice is probably about right. Throwing a cookbook big-block at a car is a very reliable way to make it fast, if that's all you're interested in. But the same could be said of throwing the ubiquitous small-block Ch*vy at every hotrod build, or driving a sh*tbox Honda to work every day. Practical? Maybe. Interesting? Not in the least.
Author:  daniel_depetro [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
No I agree with you 100%. I just found it interesting that your point was ignored on this forum.
Thats the way I took it.

But then I read it again, and one more time. Then the "I wonder if it's scarasm" came into my head. I guess this is what happens when I stay up way past my bed time. :lol:

Don't take me as a slant hater. I like my slant cars (current and past) as much as most here. I can understand why most swap in a V8 though.
Author:  Joshie225 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree that a lot of creativity is absent in the world of "muscle mopars" and that most of the neat/creative stuff going on over there costs an arm and a leg.

Even in this community a lot of people seek parts for parts sake and not to reach a HP or ET goal. I think David Vizard put it best when he wrote something like: "You don't want to own a drill bit. You want the hole." In the same manner you don't want a 4bbl carburetor and intake manifold, you want the increased performance. Where a lot of people go wrong is buy parts they don't need, that don't help or help very little for the money spent (poor value).

The first performance slant I built was a performance failure. I had a Holley 390, Clifford intake, Clifford headers, Mopar 276°/.490" cam, forged +.030" pistons, high volume oil pump, roller timing set and electronic ignition. I thought I needed all that stuff, but didn't realize all that I had done wrong. The compression ratio was much too low, the distributor curve was wrong and it ended up eating the oil pump and cam gears. It had a really healthy sounding idle, but my '66 Dart was really slow.

After the cam and oil pump gear in that engine failed I put in a Comp 264° cam and a stock oil pump. The engine idled much better, was easier on the clutch and was just as fast if not faster. Recurving the distributor made it faster yet. When I finally got the compression ratio up and put big valves in the head the car really ran well. At this point I was road racing the car and poor oil control killed a rod bearing which took out the rod, a piston, the block and crank.

My '67 Valiant has a stock short block including the stock cam. I came into an Offy intake and a Holley 390 at a good price. I had a head milled for compression (it's all of 8.5:1), had larger valves fitted and ported the head myself. I had 2 1/4" exhaust with a Walker Dynomax Super Turbo muffler installed from the stock manifold to the bumper. Ignition is via a recurved stock electronic distributor and an HEI module and coil. This car is just as quick as my '66 Dart was and cost me a fraction to build. I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
Author:  daniel_depetro [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:48 am ]
Post subject: 
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I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
:shrug:
Author:  Joshie225 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
:shrug:
I'm supposing you didn't read the whole thing. My performance result with my Valiant was just as good as my '66 Dart, but with a lot fewer fancy parts and much less cash.
Author:  daniel_depetro [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:06 am ]
Post subject: 
I read the entire thing before posting.

It also goes to show doing your homework before bolting parts together can really make a difference.
I'm still in the homework phase.
Author:  coconuteater64 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:13 am ]
Post subject: 
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I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
:shrug:
I didn't get that one either. :shrug:

Here's my $0.02, take it or leave it:
Any time you modify a mechanical object you run a risk of shortening its life cycle. That's a given. If you tried to make a slant run at horsepower levels that come stock with a big block, you will shorten its life cycle considerably. It just has to work that much harder to accomplish what a bigger engine does naturally.

But most people never use even a fraction of the horsepower their engine is capable of producing in daily life. Racing yes- but daily driving, no. So it's a moot point to me if I have a 400 horsepower big block under the hood or a slant six when I am fighting rush hour traffic.

So, if you want a cookie cutter high horsepower engine, follow the recipe that all the belly button cars have followed. If you want to have fun by being creative and modifying what you have (in this case, I have a slant six and a 2.3 "Pinto" engine), then it's a no brainer. I like the slant because I have to come up with solutions instead of having Summit ship me something that has been tested ad infinitum.

It's all about personal choice. I'm building a slant because that's what I have. Same as the "Pinto" engine in my Ranger pickup. I could easily swap in small block V8s in both, but where's the ingenuity and fun in that?
Author:  Joshie225 [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think David Vizard put it best when he wrote something like: "You don't want to own a drill bit. You want the hole."

...

I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
It's metaphor! Dang.
Author:  armyofchuckness [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I was with you, Josh. :D It's a good metaphor. I'm trying to avoid "cookbooking" a slant myself, that's why I'm on here a lot. I've also invested in a lot of literature on general mechanics, slants, Valiants, etc. so I have as much an informed idea as possible before I throw any more money away on magic fixes or "shouldaworkeds."

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to recurve my electronic distributor, but I don't think I've been reading all the posts on here as clearly as I could be.
Author:  dietz_diggler [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
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I may not have a real fancy drill bit this time, but I have just as nice a hole.
:shrug:

I believe daniel is questioning why you would brag on how nice your "orifice" is..... :oops:

anywhoo, My daily driver is a poly 318 64 dodge w/ 4 drs. and the other is my slant six 77 utiline. I also have a duster w/ a mildly built LA 318 and a built 413 waiting on me to get the 65 plymouth ready. I like 'em all, and its slightly disappointing when ppl dis the slants, but as long as they do I still get parts and engines cheap.

I just payed scrap price for a 77 2dr Volare' and thats all its worth. All I wanted was the slant 6 out of it and maybe the A/C, I'll part the rest and hopefully recoup my money. If everyone gets on the slant six that may not happen anymore. I see the prices of early A's, they're still reasonable. Midi, for one, was able to replace his ride easily and quickly. That will change one day. If every one sees the slant "glamorized" and bragged on in the magazines, it will change tomorrow.

Dan called it when he said be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. If you need info on how to make a slant go fast you can get more than you need here. Actually you need go no where else. Petersons Publishing giving accolades won't make it better.
2 not so shiny cents.
Dietz
Author:  slantzilla [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Take a look back at the last few Slant build-ups that have made the rounds in the Mopar rags. None of them have been a good, common sense build-up. All of them had lots of high dollar parts in them because they were either professionally built by shops where money is obviously no object, or the builder was forced to use high dollar parts from advertisers. The general public then assumes that it costs 5-10 large to throw together a 14 second Slant, when in reality you can do it for a hell of a lot less if you use your head.

I've had that argument over on FABO that you can build 13 second N/A power for much less than $10K, but the people who saw the build-up of Romeo's motor by Mopar Engines West called me a liar.

Bottom line is that magazines have no interest in a good low dollar Slant build because there is no "bling" in it and advertisers want "bling".

Phuque the Mopar mags. We have THE BEST SLANT ENGINE BUILDERS right here on this board.

Peace out. :D
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