Slant Six Forum :: Hard start question, long post

Yeah. Not too likely, but try a cold start with the PCV valve pulled out of the valve cover grommet and just lying there.

Just replace the needle/seat and see how it goes.

If you are getting heavy gas smells and black smoke, it's not ignition related, it's fuel- (and probably carburetor-)related.

If there is an internal fault in the carb, like a crack, then it is possible that fuel can seep down through the transfer slots, or through the idle air ports under the throttle plates. I would try blocking the throttle open after shutdown, and look down in there with a flashlight to see if there is any fuel dripping down. It hasn't taken much in my experience to foul a plug and cause a hard start.

You mention something about a garage, is it heated? How cold was your last winter?

Do you have another carburetor that is known to work you could try stuffing on there? If it will start just fine with another carb, then we know its an internal issue on your 2300.

You mention something about a garage, is it heated? How cold was your last winter?

Nope, not heated, I live in the NW and the car would start great warm, cold, hot, frozen, anything, it's just now that the problem occurs.

The reason I asked is because I suppose its possible that the cold weather caused a crack in the carb. Then through multiple heat cycles the crack grew larger, and is now causing a problem.

Author:	the_shadow [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:37 am ]
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Quote: Yeah. Not too likely, but try a cold start with the PCV valve pulled out of the valve cover grommet and just lying there. Sorry for the late reply, but I wanted to test this a few times to see if it made a difference, and it didn't. I called Holley's tech support line, and they said to check the fuel level in the bowl after shutoff (about 30 mins or so after shutoff, which after then it starts hard) AND to check the level in the morning. If the bowl is empty the fuel is somehow, somewhere, leaking into the manifold for sure (which I think we already know). He said to look long and hard at the Power Valve, but I replaced that during this process with a slightly "smaller" one (8.5 rather than stock 9.5) and it made no difference. If the bowl is really really full, then the inlet needle/seat are very worn, and I should be able to see fuel leaking down and hitting the throttle plates after shutoff. Still, this seems like a viable test that could provide some decent info. I'll report back when I find out.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:34 am ]
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Not necessarily. If you have a leaky needle/seat, you can fill up the bowl and fuel can siphon into the manifold, eventually leaving the bowl looking almost empty. Just replace the needle/seat and see how it goes.

Author:	the_shadow [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:01 am ]
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Quote: Just replace the needle/seat and see how it goes. I agree, i'm going to go ahead and order one today.

Author:	the_shadow [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:34 pm ]
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OK here's the update: I replaced the needle and seat a few days ago, i've had a few days to test it, absolutely no difference, still starts hard all the time. I checked all the settings/adjustments, nothing. When the car is off I don't see the fuel bowl getting overfilled or draining, i've left the sight plug off and it stays level, so that's confusing me...because I figured if there's excess fuel sitting in the manifold it must be coming from somewhere (and it is, just not sure where). I'm wondering if there's something else at play here....could ignition be the trouble? Since there's gas smell that really leads me to believe it's not ignition, but i'm willing to try anything at this point. I have Mopar electronic ignition with an OEM recurved dizzy. Fuel pump maybe??!? No idea how that could come into play, just confused...

Author:	Aggressive Ted [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:42 pm ]
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Just a thought.......Is the plug on the new distributor stock? or could it be reversed (out of phase). What if the pick up coil was assembled wrong and out of phase? What is the voltage at the output of the ballast resistor and at the coil? Any difference between the two? What is voltage going into the ballast resistor? Does the ECU have a ground strap going to it?

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Hard start question, long post https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36078	Page 2 of 2

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:46 pm ]
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If you are getting heavy gas smells and black smoke, it's not ignition related, it's fuel- (and probably carburetor-)related.

Author:	the_shadow [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:59 pm ]
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Quote: If you are getting heavy gas smells and black smoke, it's not ignition related, it's fuel- (and probably carburetor-)related. That's my assumption too, have anymore ideas as what it could be? I'm lost at this point.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:01 pm ]
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Internal leak in the carbâ€¦? I'm not familiar enough with the 2300 Holley to answer with any specificity.

Author:	THOR [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:23 pm ]
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If there is an internal fault in the carb, like a crack, then it is possible that fuel can seep down through the transfer slots, or through the idle air ports under the throttle plates. I would try blocking the throttle open after shutdown, and look down in there with a flashlight to see if there is any fuel dripping down. It hasn't taken much in my experience to foul a plug and cause a hard start. You mention something about a garage, is it heated? How cold was your last winter? Do you have another carburetor that is known to work you could try stuffing on there? If it will start just fine with another carb, then we know its an internal issue on your 2300. Steph with her Holley 2280 has an issue similar to this, where she gets visible fuel vapors out of the throat of the carb after shutdown, and it is a bear to get started, only when hot though. ~THOR~

Author:	the_shadow [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:07 pm ]
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Quote: If there is an internal fault in the carb, like a crack, then it is possible that fuel can seep down through the transfer slots, or through the idle air ports under the throttle plates. I would try blocking the throttle open after shutdown, and look down in there with a flashlight to see if there is any fuel dripping down. It hasn't taken much in my experience to foul a plug and cause a hard start. I'll give that a shot, because I don't see any hitting the throttle plates, it might be below Quote: You mention something about a garage, is it heated? How cold was your last winter? Nope, not heated, I live in the NW and the car would start great warm, cold, hot, frozen, anything, it's just now that the problem occurs. Quote: Do you have another carburetor that is known to work you could try stuffing on there? If it will start just fine with another carb, then we know its an internal issue on your 2300. Unfortunately I don't, and I just got off the phone with Holley and they couldn't send me another carb to test. They are however sending me a new metering block to see if that solves the problem. I will post results this weekend when I find out. I am also going to install the 3-fitting fuel filter this weekend at the same time, to see if that helps also...and it seems like a good idea anyway.

Author:	THOR [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:23 pm ]
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Quote: You mention something about a garage, is it heated? How cold was your last winter? Quote: Nope, not heated, I live in the NW and the car would start great warm, cold, hot, frozen, anything, it's just now that the problem occurs. The reason I asked is because I suppose its possible that the cold weather caused a crack in the carb. Then through multiple heat cycles the crack grew larger, and is now causing a problem. ~THOR~

Author:	the_shadow [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:33 am ]
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Quote: The reason I asked is because I suppose its possible that the cold weather caused a crack in the carb. Then through multiple heat cycles the crack grew larger, and is now causing a problem. Good point, but here's what I have now run into.... I haven't been using the car lately, it sat for a week without being started, and I went to fire it up Saturday morning. 3/4 closed choke, fired on the first compression, started perfect, just like it used to. I went back about 30 minutes later to try again, and the usual rough start occured, it only ran for a minute or so, but now i've noticed there's blue smoke out the tailpipe during startup, but NEVER after. This car NEVER had blue smoke come out until this problem occured...??? I tried again this morning before work, sure enough, blue smoke.... I'm still waiting on the new metering block from Holley, but now i'm concerned it could be something else...what could be causing this blue smoke? The oil was changed recently...maybe this is some sort of fuel pump issue diluting the oil and I just can't really notice it?

Author:	THOR [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:08 pm ]
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Typically if the only time it smokes is right after startup, it will be due to stem seals or valve guides. If it doesnt smoke at all after startup then your rings and PCV are probably not to blame. Those things would not cause the hard starting issue you have. I am thinking this as a possbility, though it may be farfetched. Crack in carb (or other issue) causing fuel to flow into the PCV valve system when you shut it down. Then, when you go to fire it back up, that excess fuel that has not evaporated is then pulled down into the engine, and causes the issue you are experiencing. The blue smoke may well be simply from wear, it doesn't sound like a connected issue. Try this: Unplug your PCV valve completely from the hose, plug the end of it, and then let it hang downward. Run the engine for a bit, and then let it sit. If any fuel enters the hose, it will accumulate at the bottom. You can also check it before you pull the PCV out. ~THOR~

Author:	the_shadow [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:59 am ]
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I found the problem...power valve. Even though I replaced it the replacement one was broken, I threw in another one on a hunch in my rebuild kit and the car works great again. The reason I did that was Holley sent me a metering block with nothing instaled, and I already had mine out of the car. Luckily it was a quick easy fix...I wonder why these powervalves are of such low quality?

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