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Noisy valves- what to do
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42357		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  kesteb [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:54 am ]
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In the olden day, of years long past, one of the hop tricks was to use solid lifters on a hydraulic cam. Just for that same condition of faster opening rates. Another was to use "mushroom" lifters, which was a lifter with a larger diameter base, this also allowed the profiles to be more aggressive. And then came "roller" lifters and the rest is now history.
Author:  Dart270 [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:21 am ]
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Interesting. Thanks, Doc.

I wonder if the Reed cam in Slantkota (Bren's old Eileen motor) is a hydro grind with solid lifters. Makes an awful racket, even lashed at 0.016"/0.018". I haven't pushed the lash closer, but maybe I should try that. Of course, it is also 222@ 0.050", 252 advertised, and 0.501" lift...

Lou
Author:  Reed [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:45 am ]
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UPDATE:

My brother finally got around to changing the oil in his motor to synthetic. The only drawback was the only Mobil 1 weights he could find were 0W-20 and 0W-40. Since the motor is still fairly fresh and has good oil pressure, he went with the 0W-20. I would have preferred 0W-30, but you have to work with what you can get. I haven't heard the motor personally yet, but he says it is already noticeably quieter. I will adjust the valves this weekend or next, and report back. :)
Author:  Reed [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:08 pm ]
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I got to hear the engine in person today. It is MUCH quieter with the Mobil 1 synthetic, even the 0W-20. I didn't get a chance to adjust the valves, but now that the motor is quieting down I definitely want to loosen the lash up a bit. I also want to recurve the distributor a bit more aggressively. :twisted:
Author:  Josh P [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:52 pm ]
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Out of curiosity... Reed did you install the cam yourself? And if so, wouldn't it be more-or-less obvious if it is a hydraulic cam (lobes are dramatic and fairly pointy, maybe even with corners) or a mechanical cam (lobes look like eggs with soft contours)? I ask only because the 1 or 2 hydraulic cams I've seen practically had corners.
Author:  4speed [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:13 am ]
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One quick thought-did you measure the lifter bores? Maybe the lifters are making the noise at that point?
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:47 am ]
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I did install the cam myself, but it was so long ago that I can't recall what the profile looked like.

I did not measure the lifter bores. This motor was rebuilt back around 99 or 2000, then saw very little use for the next seven years or so. The motor was perfectly quiet with a stock 1976 cam in it. It only got noisy after I installed a 1964 225 cam custom ground to the Erson RV10 profile.

Aggressive Ted has also installed a cam reground by the same cam shop to the same specifications. He also reported the valves were noisy until he added Mobil 1 synthetic. The valves on my brother's motor have really quieted down since we added the Mobil 1 synthetic oil, and appear to continue to get quieter the more the motor is driven with the synthetic oil in it.
Author:  emsvitil [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:13 pm ]
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I'm wondering if the cam has the take-up ramps for the lifters (hydraulic cams don't have them).
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:18 pm ]
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Tell you what, if I ever pull the motor or cam out of the van, I'll let you know. But chances are that the motor and cam will go to the boneyard with this van when the time comes...
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:25 pm ]
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Reed,

I will be upgrading my "Torque and Mileage build" engine with bigger valves, dual roller timing chain, a little more advance on the cam and one of Doc' oil pumps this spring. I have the motor on a engine stand under a truck canopy but it is just too cold right now to work outside (no garage). When I have the pan off I will take a close look at the cam and take some pictures of the lobes.

As I mentioned before Mobil 1, 0-30W really made a big difference in reducing valve train noise after the rebuild and break-in process. It ran very quiet for a solid lifter motor and had plenty of torque. Another benefit of the Mobil 1 is the reduced engine temperatures. My electric fan kicks on less frequently.
Author:  Reed [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:00 pm ]
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Thanks Ted! I look forward to seeing those pictures.

Now that the valves are getting quiet, I really want to address the timing curve on this motor. I know there is more mileage and performance to be wrung out of this motor, and I believe the ignition system is the best place to start, but I need to relash the valves before I begin to play with the distributor. Right now, the valves are lashed at .012 on both intake and exhaust. I set them that tight mainly to keep the lifter noise down. I want to loosen up the exhaust lash and hopefully gain some vacuum. With the stock cam, this motor got 21 inches of vacuum at idle. With the RV 10 grind, it is currently getting a lousy 17-18 inches at idle. Any amount of throttle opening drops the vacuum to slightly more than 10 inches, and pressing the accelerator to get the van really going quickly drops the vacuum to below 5 inches. Light throttle cruise keeps the vacuum at about 11 inches. I gotta have more vacuum, especially since my vacuum advance pod starts coming on around 10 inches.

This engine is .060 oversize in the bore, and ha Ford 300 valves in it. I don't believe any porting or relieving work was done on the head though. However, it is in a daily driver work van that has to haul somewhat heavy loads, so I am not overly concerned.

I am hoping to set a distributor up with a 15R governor, a heavy spring with a long loop, and a medium tension spring. The van cruises at about 2700 RPM on the highway (65-70 MPH), so I want to target it to have about 30 degrees advance by 2700 RPM, with the last two or three degrees coming in by 3000 RPM. I want the vacuum advance to start coming in at around 7 inches, so it will actually do something during light throttle cruise.

The van weighs in at 3500 pounds empty, and often hauls five adults plus band gear, so say around 1500 pounds payload for a total of 5000 pounds. I don't want the advance to all come in by 1500 RPM, but I do want some spunk since the van has 3.2 rear gears.

I'll report back as the tuning progresses. I only get to have the van every other weekend, and then only for two days or so. Not a lot of time for tuning and testing. :?
Author:  4speed [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:29 pm ]
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Be careful on your vacuum. The vacuum advance unit uses ported vacuum that is not the same as manifold vacuum. Put the gauge on the rubber tube that goes to the vacuum advance unit to see what it sees.
Author:  Reed [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:42 pm ]
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Quote:
Be careful on your vacuum. The vacuum advance unit uses ported vacuum that is not the same as manifold vacuum. Put the gauge on the rubber tube that goes to the vacuum advance unit to see what it sees.
Yup, I know that. Last weekend when I swapped the worn BBD for a near NOS 2280, I did exactly that and saw how much vacuum the ported vacuum nipple "showed" the vacuum advance pod. I didn't make a RPM to vacuum inches chart, but I was disturbed to see that at light throttle, no vacuum was sent, and slightly more throttle only three inches was sent, and it wasn't until about half-throttle that full manifold vacuum was sent through the distributor nipple on the carb. However, by that point, manifold vacuum was down to around ten inches. So no matter how you cut it, the vacuum advance pod as it is currently configured is just hanging off the side of the distributor doing nothing. It never engages since it is currently adjusted to start opening at ten inches and stops moving at 17 inches. I will fine tune it one I get the valves adjusted, get the carb totally dialed in, and get the new spark advance curve installed.
Author:  Reed [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:51 pm ]
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Quote:
Reed,

I will be upgrading my "Torque and Mileage build" engine with bigger valves, dual roller timing chain, a little more advance on the cam and one of Doc' oil pumps this spring.
Ted- I am very interested to hear how your motor performs since the motor in my brother's van is pretty close to what you propose. .060 oversize pistons, Ford 300 valves, one of the last Mopar Performance true double roller timing sets (was one of three left in the dealership system when I ordered it back in the late 90s), the cam is centerlined at 108 degrees (if I measured the centerline correct, something that I am not 100% confident about and need to double check), and Erson RV10 grind. It is running a cast iron two barrel intake and home-made dual exhaust manifolds (a couple of stock manifolds cut and brazed) with no heat shield under the carb, but those differences shouldn't affect much.

I need to upgrade to HEI and clean up the engine wiring. It is already running a Ford stock e-core coil off of an 89 fuel injected 351 motor, but could use a bit more help.
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