Close enough!
You said it with fewer words too!
CJ
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| Author: | ceej [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:32 pm ] |
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Close enough! You said it with fewer words too! CJ |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:25 pm ] |
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Thanks for the explanation. It still seems as if the piston changing directions twice with each crank stroke would create a noise on both the up and down if the wrist pin is loose, with the exception of the power stroke where the pressure is continually down both at TDC and at the bottom. . On the exhaust stroke, usng your logic the piston is more or less floating and if there is a gap there somewhere, this gap would shift from top side to bottom side as the as the piston reverses from being pulled down to being pushed up. If my image is clear as to the forces at work here, then there would be two knocking sounds every other stroke with a loose wrist pin. I changed the oil and took the car for a spin tonight. The noise actually seems quieter, but still there. Better oil is providing more filler between the surfaces that are knocking together I suppose. Tomorrow evening I am going to adjust the valves again, and see if I can make the noise stop by laying my hands on one rocker at a time. I tried the hose thing and got nothing. Sam |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:38 am ] |
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Adjusted the valves this morning to 13 and 18. Of course you can hear the sweet rustle of solid lifters, but there is a deeper, louder sound pretty much right with it that is additional and down lower. And not as even in volume. I hear it more with my head in different places and turned different ways. Can the lifters themselves make noise in the bore? Sam |
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| Author: | Rug_Trucker [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:23 am ] |
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It's not a bad thing to cut open a filter. I found non magnetic babbit in my Dart's. It was bearing material. BTW what brand filter do you use? |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:26 pm ] |
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It is a Napa premium made by somebody good, but I cannot remember who. How can you cut it open without getting metal into the filter? It is still sitting on my work bench waiting. Sam |
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| Author: | slantsik [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:37 pm ] |
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Quote: Can the lifters themselves make noise in the bore?
Yep.To check for lifter noise ,get your hose or stethescope and place it on the fuel pump side of the block. try to get the end of the hose about level with the fuel pump bolt on point. move the hose along the block at that level or a bit lower. Lifters can get stuck in their bores. Usually this happens when the lifter stops spinning in the bore ,possibly due to oil contamination , maybe? The lifter face then wears and the lifter now cant spin at all , lifter can heat up causing it to expand and get suck worse. The cam will push the swollen lifter up ,and it is tight in the bore,then the valve spring overcomes the friction the pushrod can flex and slams the lifter back onto the camshaft,Clunk clunk! Another test you can do is pull a spark plug lead off 1 at a time with engine running. This can reduce load on that piston and conrod assembly .Any noise in that assembly ,including worn big end bearing,can be reduced and diagnosed that way. Also check for exhaust leaks, flex plate bolts,manifold heat box flap loose Distributor shaft loose, oil pickup hitting crak etc Hope this helps. Brendan |
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| Author: | Doc [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:07 pm ] |
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Quote: ... How can you cut it open without getting metal into the filter? It is still sitting on my work bench waiting...
I use my exhaust pipe cutter. (a roller type cutter)Sam DD 
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:22 pm ] |
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Thanks again to all. I don't have an exhaust pipe cutter. Boy that looks handy. No flex plate. This is a Ford T-5. Exhaust is tight. It is all new and welded. For what it is worth, one of the guys at the cruise commented that the noise sounded like a diesel engine. This will give you some idea of the type of sound. He suggested simply putting high test in it to see if it got better. I unhooked the spark plugs one at a time, and no change. Another guy at tonight's cruise listened to it, and thought it sounded like a wrist pin. His opinion was that if he is right, it might go 60K miles this way before the noise got loud enough to want to do something about it. He also suggested pulling the spark plug wires one at a time. Which of course did nothing. So maybe the wrist pin diagnosis is off. It is noisier on the driver's side, which reinforces the wrist pin diganosis perhaps and weakens the lifter noise thought, although you can hear it some from that side. I guess if the noise is a lifter, then unhooking spark plugs would not effect that . So that part suggests lifters. The distributor is still in the running. At some point I will change it. I have decided to drive it on down to Lou's on Sunday. If it breaks, then I will know what is wrong. If I get there and back, which I strongly suspect will happen given the history of this noise so far, then I will kind of put my concerns on the back burner. That's about as far from home as I intend to drive this care for now. You know I never listened to my other slants this closely. Maybe they all sounded like this. Geez. Thanks again for the thoughts. Sam |
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| Author: | slantsik [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:30 am ] |
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Also I have found lifter noise to be most noticeable at idle with a hot engine. Rev the engine a little and it almost dissappears. Some here have had noisy fuel pumps but I have not heard that noise for myself. Problem is so many things can make noises, and we are all just guessing. You have to do the real detective work sherlock Brendan. |
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| Author: | emsvitil [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:58 am ] |
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You can pull out pairs of push-rods and lifters and see if it doesn't make the noise when a cylinder isn't being used.......... |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:18 am ] |
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Yes, But Watson was a vital part of the search. And your thoughts have illuminated it enormously. Most of these things I would not have thought of myself. I am kind of leaning towards stuck lifters at this point. Here are the symptoms pointing towards this: 1. Worse when it is hot. 2.Does not change when spark plugs are pulled one at a time. 3. It comes from down lower in the block, about where the lifter valley would be. 4.Car is not driven much,which would likely lead to tightness of things, rather than looseness such as wrist pins and such. 5.Is not heavy in mass or very low in pitch, but it is lower in pitch than a typical lifter out of adjustment. 6. It got quieter when I changed the oil to 5w30 Mobil One. 7. It does no increase in volume with increase load on the engine. So my thought now is to put in a good oil additive designed to free sticky things such as rings and lifters. If this is the case, the drive down to Lou's could end up being the best thing for it. I know oil additives are almost as controversial as political party affiliation.  Some love em, some detest them. For those what loves em, what are your favorites?I cannot thank you guys enough for your thoughts and contributions to all my challenges here. I have no local slant community, and as stated earlier locals here simply scratch their heads when I have questions. This is not your neighbors Small Block Chevy. This is the forum working at its best. I'll let you know how it goes from here. Sam Sam |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:51 am ] |
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I don't see the lifter sticking thing. These are solid lifters, so if anything stuck, something would have to bend or break. Drive it on down! Looking forward to the visit. Lou |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:59 am ] |
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I can see that if it hang in the bore, maybe there remains a small gap at the lobe lifter contact area which would make a noise as the ramp hits it again. Varnish could make that happen just as it keeps a hydraulic lifter from expanding full size when the lobe falls away from it. Sam |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:35 am ] |
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This morning drove it over to my long time good friend, professional mechanic, machine shop operator and racer. He listened intently and intelligently and offered that he thought the noise is a combination of the forged pistons and a wrist pin. His advice: Don't worry about it until it gets worse. Then either re machine the rods with cast pistons or find another engine. Sam |
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| Author: | Rug_Trucker [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:14 am ] |
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My van has had a piston slap (I think) since I rebuilt it back in 2000. It has way over 150K on it. #2 exhaust valve was munched up and spit out the exhaust. This was a junk yard motor. It was already .040. I hand honed the cylinders and kept checking #2 with a ring and a feeler gauge. I used iron rings as they would seat easier. Still running fine, uses no oil! BTW they make oil filter cutters. Any flakes from a hack saw will be minimal and not oily. |
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