Slant Six Forum :: Timing out of whack

I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up!

Quote:

Can you recommend any more good reading that starts at the basics and guides me thru more of what I need to know?

There was a good Hot Rod book on Camshafts that had several good articles on the understanding of the bascis, and some step by step on setting one up, and dyno runs to show what happens when a cam is advanced or retarded (on V-8 platform though, but still pertinent).

Quote:

that he installed whatever stock cam was called for in a 1986 slant engine.
I am going to assume that the cam is pretty weak, dummied down for a lean burn set-up engine and emissions standards that had to be met at the time.

I would bet that it is just a generic Melling replacement but only he knows what he used...if it is stockish it will be tame like the engine before the rebuild.

Quote:

I would like to change the cam while I am in there, I would like a cam that will give me optimum results for my specific vehicle. How would I go about choosing the correct cam?

If you change the cam, you will be removing the head as you have a 1975+ engine and the head has to be removed to remove the lifters...
Also are you going with a hydraulic cam or a mechanical cam....?
This is a big decision as : there aren't as many selections for the hydraulic cam profiles, if the lift is higher you may need new pushrods, and the mech cam will require a change in rockers and pushrods...

Selecting the cam will be limited by compression ratio, and the vehicle...since you have a truck you will be looking at no more than 254 or so advertised duration so that you get a fat wide torque band that you can use from idle to highway speeds and more if needed...this will work with a compression ratio that is stockish to 9.2:1, if you have more compression you will get more out of it...also plugging the engine and cam data into a DCR calculator will help determine what will work (keeping the DCR in the 7.5-8.1 range is about right for daily driving).
You will notice after fooling around with things that a larger cam will bleed off compression and leave a low compression engine with a lack of performance...(larger cams 268+ duration tend to be a little bit "peaky" allowong best torque at a certain range, more duration means the engine has to turn more rpm to get to it's power band...and need more compression to support it).

Quote:

I want the gear drive cause I like the sound of a blower, plain and simple, I love that whine.

Quote:

I would like to change the cam while I am in there, I would like a cam that will give me optimum results for my specific vehicle. How would I go about choosing the correct cam?

The answer to your question is pretty simple for your truck. Doctor Dodge may have built more engine combinations than anybody.....he helped me a lot on mine to get it dialed in since my car is so heavy.

Go to the Engine FAQ and read the "Engine Build Matrix" on engine builds and look for mine "Torque Build". That would be a great set up for your truck.

I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up!

Quote:

I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up!

It may seem hard to do now, and just uncomfortable...but when you are done doing these things you will look back and see how far you have come and why you didn't do it sooner, and can comfortably think "What else can I do?"

We'll keep answering questions...that's what the board is for!!!!

Who is Doctor Dodge, how do I contact?

As far as removing the head for lifters I have been reading and this is what I found, do you know this too be un-true ?

Quote:

As far as removing the head for lifters I have been reading and this is what I found, do you know this too be un-true ?

the holes are bigger and can work to get the lifter through, but difficult is an understatement, a proctologist would have an easier time pulling a lifter out of it's bore then up the lifter bay and then center it to get it through the hole...if they are dumbell shaped and the bores are full of oil sometimes a long nose pliers will be needed to motivate it out of the bore (at that point the head will need to come off.

-D.Idiot

Quote:

Who is Doctor Dodge, how do I contact?

Doug Dutra, the man behind this website and one of the most experienced SL6 engine builders. Send him a PM. Read his articles and posts in "The best of Doctor Dodge".....in the Engine FAQ.

OK, new cam and lifters have just been installed and none of it has 100 miles on it, I dont see a reason to replace the lifters again unless I am missing something.

Quote:

OK, new cam and lifters have just been installed and none of it has 100 miles on it, I dont see a reason to replace the lifters again unless I am missing something.

Any time a cam and lifters have been run, they become "seated" together, and the lifters should be kept on the same cam lobes.
A new cam, solid or hydraulic, should always get new lifters.

Of course there are different interpretations and instructions given with different sets. Was the instruction on this set to point the dots AT each other?

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:	x2!!!
Quote: I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up! It may seem hard to do now, and just uncomfortable...but when you are done doing these things you will look back and see how far you have come and why you didn't do it sooner, and can comfortably think "What else can I do?" We'll keep answering questions...that's what the board is for!!!!

Author:	1930 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Some thoughts...
Quote: Quote: Can you recommend any more good reading that starts at the basics and guides me thru more of what I need to know? There was a good Hot Rod book on Camshafts that had several good articles on the understanding of the bascis, and some step by step on setting one up, and dyno runs to show what happens when a cam is advanced or retarded (on V-8 platform though, but still pertinent). Quote: that he installed whatever stock cam was called for in a 1986 slant engine. I am going to assume that the cam is pretty weak, dummied down for a lean burn set-up engine and emissions standards that had to be met at the time. I would bet that it is just a generic Melling replacement but only he knows what he used...if it is stockish it will be tame like the engine before the rebuild. Quote: I would like to change the cam while I am in there, I would like a cam that will give me optimum results for my specific vehicle. How would I go about choosing the correct cam? If you change the cam, you will be removing the head as you have a 1975+ engine and the head has to be removed to remove the lifters... Also are you going with a hydraulic cam or a mechanical cam....? This is a big decision as : there aren't as many selections for the hydraulic cam profiles, if the lift is higher you may need new pushrods, and the mech cam will require a change in rockers and pushrods... Selecting the cam will be limited by compression ratio, and the vehicle...since you have a truck you will be looking at no more than 254 or so advertised duration so that you get a fat wide torque band that you can use from idle to highway speeds and more if needed...this will work with a compression ratio that is stockish to 9.2:1, if you have more compression you will get more out of it...also plugging the engine and cam data into a DCR calculator will help determine what will work (keeping the DCR in the 7.5-8.1 range is about right for daily driving). You will notice after fooling around with things that a larger cam will bleed off compression and leave a low compression engine with a lack of performance...(larger cams 268+ duration tend to be a little bit "peaky" allowong best torque at a certain range, more duration means the engine has to turn more rpm to get to it's power band...and need more compression to support it). Quote: I want the gear drive cause I like the sound of a blower, plain and simple, I love that whine. Sadly this is not a good thing for a street slant in your daily driver range...The gear drive is typically used on V-8's to keep the owner from having to replace the timing chain after beating their engine up at the track...that being said the V-8 also can take the loss of power that gear drive will impart (one of my coworkers went to one on his chevy big block...the dyno loss was about 30 horspower difference in the same engine going from the chain to the gear, he made it back up with some timing changes and changing the carburator)...On a slant since the displacement is so little, we don't make large gains from simple items, we have to fight for 1-2 hp or a few ft/lbs of torque here and there unless you build a high compression slant (but then you leave the realm of streetability/mileage at that point naturally aspirated...the make up for this would probably mean going to a turbo to get back the power on a mild build for the gear drive). i use double roller chains in my builds and i have yet to replace one from stretch because I beat the snot out of it at the track or on the street. 2 cents, -D.idiot[/quote Quote: What is this, how do I find it, is this something that a cam manufacturer will have on his site? .....................also plugging the engine and cam data into a DCR calculator will help determine what will work............... As far as removing the head for lifters I have been reading and this is what I found, do you know this too be un-true ? If you run across more info on the Hot rod books let me know, I will try and search thru google for the articles you mentioned and see what happens, prob. nothing since I dont have any specific date. The gear drives that I have seen advertised for the slant are cumbersome looking with two separate idler gears, I installed a gear drive in a 340 I had quite a few years ago, it was only crank and cam gear with a small gear in the middle to reverse rotation of the cam gear. I would think that the slant set-up being offered would put alot of drag on the engine, cant say what the set-up was on your friends Chevy since I did not see it. Chances are looking at all I have read that the gear drive will not be the way to go but I am still curious to find more info on the big block mopar gear drives. I have found a couple of posts here on this forum where they are mentioned as an alternative set-up but no-one goes into any detail as to what are the requirements to make them work. I cant help but to wonder why, possibly cause the info I am reading is heresay, Id like to find some info from someone that has hands on attempted the use of these gears, what they ran into and at that point I can make an educated decision on what direction I should go. I am not certain because I did not look when I had the opportunity but it may be that all truck slants came originally with a double roller timing chain set-up, ......maybe not all, maybe only some did and who decided which got it I do not know but I have a spare truck motor I can look at and of course I will be tearing into my own again soon enough. Will let you know what I find.

Author:	1930 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:37 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: I would like to change the cam while I am in there, I would like a cam that will give me optimum results for my specific vehicle. How would I go about choosing the correct cam? The answer to your question is pretty simple for your truck. Doctor Dodge may have built more engine combinations than anybody.....he helped me a lot on mine to get it dialed in since my car is so heavy. Go to the Engine FAQ and read the "Engine Build Matrix" on engine builds and look for mine "Torque Build". That would be a great set up for your truck. I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up! Who is Doctor Dodge, how do I contact? I will check out what you mentioned assuming I can find it. Will search tonight. Its Ok on the re-build, whatever, whats done is done. Just another opportunity to learn some new things. As long as the work that I need to do dosent require pulling the engine than I will be OK, if for whatever reason it has to be pulled than things will be a whole different story.

Author:	1930 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: x2!!!
Quote: Quote: I am sorry that the so called engine builder/machinist you went through is clueless. Keep asking questions! and don't give up! It may seem hard to do now, and just uncomfortable...but when you are done doing these things you will look back and see how far you have come and why you didn't do it sooner, and can comfortably think "What else can I do?" We'll keep answering questions...that's what the board is for!!!! Yes it does seem hard and a bit uncomfortable, I have done alot of these things, I even owned a degree wheel at one point and may still have it, knew how to use it as well but that was quite a few years ago and when I did use it I prob. just used it enough to get done what I needed to get done and did not take the opportunity to learn everything I could have used it for to get optimum results. I wont make that mistake again hopefully. Its not like riding a bike, if you dont do this sort of stuff everyday than alot of it gets filed away and its tough to remember the details needed.

Author:	Aggressive Ted [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:08 am ]
Post subject:	Who is Doctor Dodge
Quote: Who is Doctor Dodge, how do I contact? Doug Dutra, the man behind this website and one of the most experienced SL6 engine builders. Send him a PM. Read his articles and posts in "The best of Doctor Dodge".....in the Engine FAQ.

Slant Six Forum https://slantsix.org/forum/

Timing out of whack https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54425	Page 2 of 3

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Yep...
Quote: As far as removing the head for lifters I have been reading and this is what I found, do you know this too be un-true ? the holes are bigger and can work to get the lifter through, but difficult is an understatement, a proctologist would have an easier time pulling a lifter out of it's bore then up the lifter bay and then center it to get it through the hole...if they are dumbell shaped and the bores are full of oil sometimes a long nose pliers will be needed to motivate it out of the bore (at that point the head will need to come off. -D.Idiot

Author:	1930 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yep...
Quote: Quote: As far as removing the head for lifters I have been reading and this is what I found, do you know this too be un-true ? the holes are bigger and can work to get the lifter through, but difficult is an understatement, a proctologist would have an easier time pulling a lifter out of it's bore then up the lifter bay and then center it to get it through the hole...if they are dumbell shaped and the bores are full of oil sometimes a long nose pliers will be needed to motivate it out of the bore (at that point the head will need to come off. -D.Idiot OK, new cam and lifters have just been installed and none of it has 100 miles on it, I dont see a reason to replace the lifters again unless I am missing something. I dont see any reason at this point to consider a solid cam, dont even know yet what is avail for hydraulic. Any recommendations for a cam supplier?

Author:	1930 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who is Doctor Dodge
Quote: Quote: Who is Doctor Dodge, how do I contact? Doug Dutra, the man behind this website and one of the most experienced SL6 engine builders. Send him a PM. Read his articles and posts in "The best of Doctor Dodge".....in the Engine FAQ. Thanks, will do

Author:	Charrlie_S [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yep...
Quote: OK, new cam and lifters have just been installed and none of it has 100 miles on it, I dont see a reason to replace the lifters again unless I am missing something. Any time a cam and lifters have been run, they become "seated" together, and the lifters should be kept on the same cam lobes. A new cam, solid or hydraulic, should always get new lifters.

Author:	1930 [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yep...
Quote: Quote: OK, new cam and lifters have just been installed and none of it has 100 miles on it, I dont see a reason to replace the lifters again unless I am missing something. Any time a cam and lifters have been run, they become "seated" together, and the lifters should be kept on the same cam lobes. A new cam, solid or hydraulic, should always get new lifters. Ok will keep that in mind, thanks Charlie

Author:	1930 [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:43 am ]
Post subject:
Here is what I get for paying someone to assemble this thing, white marks were left my machinest, red arrows are showing dots after I removed the white paint. Engine is at TDC #1 on compression stroke Not only have I wasted a bunch of my time ( and many others on these forums ) but I cant help but wonder if I burned the cam up because I never was able to break in everything properly. During initial start-up lets just say things did not go smoothly. I did the best I could too get it started and did hold it at 2000 for twenty minutes but anyway what a mess. I am going to guess I have no legal ground to stand on but I am going to be paying this guy a visit and ask for a partial refund.

Author:	mattelderca [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:03 am ]
Post subject:
Looks to me like one more turn of the crank and the marks are spot on. I would not really blame the person who installed the set for anything. The dots lined up as they should. Whether that is the true, or best timing of that cam is another story. The cam gear should only fit at one point, the crank gear also only fits at one point. That is with a stock non adjustable set. After that you point the dots at each other and put the chain on. If the set itself is wrong no one without the knowledge of that can be blamed. It looks like they put it together right to me. Of course there are different interpretations and instructions given with different sets. Was the instruction on this set to point the dots AT each other? Or was it to align the dots both at 12 O'clock? Or again, was it to align the dots with the darker chain links? And to throw another variable at it, was that set meant for that cam? This is the reason that the experts here suggest getting the cam specs and degreeing the cam properly! Then there is no room for variables.

Author:	ceej [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:05 am ]
Post subject:
It's difficult to see what is wrong. Perhaps parallax based on the angle of the camera is hiding it from me. (Your date stamps are September of 2007 by the way.) Are the dots lined up through the centerline of the crankshaft and cam? If so, then the timing set is lined up correctly. The next step is to degree the cam. If it was one of the OEM replacement cams, it is most likely to have events that coincide with the MP244. That is the most common for a mechanical replacement over the counter. To degree the cam may require a different timing set. The one you have is the slotted type on the cam for the cam dowl. If you are going to use cam offset bushings, you will need the type with a hole drilled for the dowl. It needs to be drilled to accept the bushing. If you have the engine out at this stage, pull the head. Put an indicator on the deck and absolutely identify TDC. I wouldn't worry too much about the cam break-in, just so long as the engine didn't spend much time at idle speed during the procedure. That's the killer. CJ

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Yep...
Figured... You might line up the dots as others have said and put the degree wheel on and see where things line up...if the numbers look good, you can button it up and take a ride (it should feel MUCH better at that point)... If you maintained 2000 rpm for the 20 minutes etc...the cam and lifters should be OK. If adjustments need to be made (i.e. off set bushings)...you can note the distance from the center of the gear to the cam dowel, then remove the gear and scribe a line through the slot and the center of the gear, then drill a new hole on the opposite side of the gear in line with the slot...the dots will be irrelevant at that point but you can now redegree the cam and bush it to match. Quote: Of course there are different interpretations and instructions given with different sets. Was the instruction on this set to point the dots AT each other? It's an SA stock replacement gear set so the dots should point at each other like the stock sets, if installing the set on a "stock" engine...these don't come with instructions in them just the gears and the chain with the expectation that the dots get lined up and you're done... -D.Idiot

Page 2 of 3	All times are UTC-08:00
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited https://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	1930 [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:38 am ]
Post subject:
I guess maybe I am jumping the gun than but this is how the timing marks should appear according to my FSM