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| So what oil are you using ? with ZDDP scare oooohh https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56840 |
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| Author: | SlantSteve [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:44 pm ] |
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To be honest the 318 is probably a better engine to build anyways...pistons for the 273 are pretty scarce over here ...every one seems to opt for a 318 at least...Keep the adjustable rockers out of the 273... Run them on the 318...go the heavier oil...most reputable builders in OZ recomend running 15/50 or 20/50 in old tech non roller flat tappet engines and have no issue with lobes wiping or excessive pressures,but we have a far warmer climate...(40c) in some areas today! The best part is as the temps go up the amount of clothing worn by the ladies gets less!! I love beach weather |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:30 pm ] |
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Quote: The oil pumps were both new
Both...? You swapped out the oil pump to see if that would solve the problem, or are we talking about two different engines?
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| Author: | rustytoolss [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:42 pm ] |
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Quote: Quote: The oil pumps were both new
Both...? You swapped out the oil pump to see if that would solve the problem, or are we talking about two different engines?I have a 1985 318, that I may redo. If I replace the 273. The 273 is a 1966, the 318 is a1985. Someone told me that there is some kind of bushing that would be needed in the crankshaft of the 1985 318. So that the T converter will fit properly . Do you know anything about that bushing/adapter ? |
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| Author: | rustytoolss [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:39 am ] |
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Quote: The last LA smallblock I did was a few years back....it had low oil pressure when I bought it as a rebuilder. I had issues with a new cam I bought. It was a new billet ground by a local company. The prob was the new billet had far narrower journals than the original cam. Combine that with a little core shift in the block and it was far enough out to barely cover the rather large oil holes in one of the cam journals. From memory the hole was like .020" inside the bearing....it was THAT bad! I have no doubt if I ran it like it was,or had old cam bearings in it there would be oil pressure issues. I ended up getting an old original cam reground. I have no doubt there are still billets floating around like the one I had. The 273 was a solid cam engine from memory? I'm pretty sure the oil system is similar to the Ford Clevelands,fed via lifter bores and all other places before we give a little oil to the ummmm,what are they?? Oh yes,the bearings...maybe they should get the left over oil !! My point is,if the lifter bores are worn,then you run used cam bearings that may be a tad loose it's not surprising you have low idle pressure. From memory the oil pressure is read from the rear,but that's where the pump is,so actual pressure at the front of the engine may be even lower. I'd feel a little uneasy about that idle pressure,sure it may be within limits,but a new engine should have solid pressure about 10lbs below normal cruising pressure in my book. As far as oils go,I can't really suggest anything for your climates,but If you have large clearances with that thin oil,it's going to show up any issues sooner ,but that being said,if it's a good engine you should be able to run that viscosity without hassles. In my book bearing clearances you measured are fine... a little tight if anything. Full grooved bearings are not on my shopping list and may also be costing you idle pressure,there is no advantage to them. There are many,many guys in OZ running 500+++ HP Clevos with CHI heads turning 7000rpm and they never run full grooved mains...they dropped that idea with cross drilled cranks,it's old theory...and the Cleveland isn't known for its state of the art lube systems!i feel the LA engines would be in the same boat..If you need a crank ground it's usually better to measure the ID of your bearings and get the crank ground to the clearance you want,.001" per inch plus.0005" is a good yardstick. If the STP is helping,then maybe a heavier oil could boost things a little,but it's not really a fix,but it won't hurt ... I've used STP in engines that need oil pressure to tension the timing chains,it helps shut them up at idle...sure replacing the chain is the fix but it certainly extended the time before I did the chain service. I looked at a rod bearing when it was torn down and it was perfect,no issue,a new chain and guides and all was good,so I don't feel it would hurt....but you shouldn't need it.
The lifters fit good in the bores , not loose, no excessive ware. As for the full groove mains. They were new bearings that I bought over 20 years ago, and had never used them. I have plenty of hot oil pressure above idle speed. I don not have any concerns about the pressure above say 900 rpm.
To sum up all my rambling I think I'd be checking lifter bore wear,cam bearing condition,cam journal width and alignment,go to half groove bearings and check oil pump RV..the fact you have had issues with 2 different pumps tends to indicate that's not the issue,but check....the other two alternatives are to..run it as is,or run heavier oil...what's to lose? If the oil doesn't fix it you'll pull it down later rather than sooner,it's really just a matter of preference. Less than 20 at idle and 50 at high rpm and I think I'd be stripping it. And yes,I used the "F" word (Ford) on here.. |
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| Author: | SlantSteve [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:33 am ] |
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You are dealing with an engine that's pushing 50 years old...the lifters clearance in the bore must be measured..like I say, the Mopar has similar oiling issues to others and lifter clearance is critical.To say they fit ok isn't really going to cut it.. I realise you only have a pressure prob at idle,the full grooved bearings are not doing you any favours as far as this issue is concerned ...To fit a hi vol pump and only make 2psi improvement at idle you must have a major clearance issue. So you "rebuilt " using 20 year old full groove mains,used cam bearings and fitted a hydraulic cam to a factory solid lifter engine? There are a lot if possible issues as I mentioned....we can guess all day long,the only true way to find out the cause is strip it. |
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| Author: | rustytoolss [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:42 am ] |
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I'm sure that a lot of what you say is true. As for the hydraulic cam. Not all 273 had solid lifters. This is a 2brl engine. When Chrysler was ramping up to build the 318. They started to used the valve train parts, that would end up into the new 318 engine. This was started in the 1966 engine assembly plant at some point mid year. The hydraulic valve train was far cheaper to produce. My pressure problems are coming from not replacing the cam bearings. Even with full groove bearing, ONCE the groove is full of oil the pressure is not changed. |
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| Author: | olafla [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:52 am ] |
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I run RedLine 0W30, 5W30 or 10W30, whatever I have at hand, with plenty of ZDDP. If one believes in ZDDP or not, why risk your engine? To me it is very simple math, the cost of a regularly changed (any brand) quality oil vs. a premature engine overhaul. Oil always win! Olaf |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:11 pm ] |
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Whether we're talking about headlight bulbs or engine oil selection or engine oil additives or whatever, it is common for those who don't know (and can't be bothered to learn) what they're talking about to make a purchase/use decision based on dubious-quality information they don't really understand, then assume "if some is necessary, more is good and even more is even better!", then from there jump to making up bogus reasons why they're right and everyone should listen to them and use plenty of [whatever]. Sad, really. |
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| Author: | SlantSteve [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:32 pm ] |
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Quote: ONCE the groove is full of oil the pressure is not changed.
If that's what you want to go with that's no issue for me..... I'd suggest some good reading in the Clevite Mahle service manual...lots of great info on bearing choice and why full groove bearings are not a good idea....If it was just a matter of "filling up the grooves" you wouldn't have an oil pressure problem in the first place....we all make our own judgements if that's what you believe then I hope it works out for you....and thanks for the info on hydraulic cams in 273's...I thought they went hydraulic in around 1968/9, which made yours solid,anyways....good luck |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:27 pm ] |
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Quote: Not all 273 had solid lifters. This is a 2brl engine.
You said it's a '66 273. All '66 273s had solid lifters. Same solid lifters (p/n 2469 501) as the slant-6 engine, as a matter of fact. Same is true in '67. The 273 didn't get hydro lifters til '68.Quote: When Chrysler was ramping up to build the 318. They started to used the valve train parts, that would end up into the new 318 engine. This was started in the 1966 engine assembly plant at some point mid year The hydraulic valve train was far cheaper to produce.
Sorry, no. You're making this silly story up as you go along. Why?Quote: My pressure problems are coming from not replacing the cam bearings.
Yep. And you knew that from the start. Soooo...what's the point of asking about way-too-heavy oil weights that won't solve the problem and will cause new ones?Quote: Even with full groove bearing, ONCE the groove is full of oil the pressure is not changed.
Hydraulic engineers all over the world will be amazed to learn they've been wrong all this time. |
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| Author: | MichaelS [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:28 am ] |
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I must add, as serious as the posters problem is, Slant Six Dan you're responses are always a very entertaining part of my stop here, and educational. Thank you. |
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