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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 10:28 am 
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TBI Slant 6
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Well, the simple answer is: the mod I did on the 1973 carb allows manifold vacuum to the choke puller diaphragm and the economizer diagram when just opening the throtte plate, and not at closed plate (as the 1969 carb appears to works).

When installing the 1969 carb in the car, I can see that at idle the choke puller diaphragm is not under vacuum (not pulling the choke open).When opening/pumping the throttle, the choke puller immediately opened the choke (there is vacuum in the system) (Please, could somebody with 1969 or earlier carbs confirm this behavior? Maybe my 1969 carb is kaput). When I installed the 1973 in the car, I saw it under vacuum when in idle (pulling the choke open).

I saw that difference, and thought that this was a wrong operating condition, that might shown enough vacuum to open the economizer valve at idle and increase gas consumption (unproven without further testing, it depends on the spring and pressures/force balance in the economizer diaphragm). I do not have the service manual of 1970+ cars to know if my car was missing anything (equipment wise), that is why I'm asking in this forum.

One thing is clear: the Economizer Diaphragm and the Choke Puller Diaphragm are subjected to the same vacuum (they are connected via the groove in the carb base)

This pictures show the 1969 carb wall at throttle plate, with the valve closed and slightly open.

https://flic.kr/p/tduMbj

https://flic.kr/p/tdNkke

The holes under the plate are the PCV, the idle fuel, and the transfer slot. When opened, the distributor vacuum hole appears. I think the economizer vacuum is connected to the transfer slot or the distributor vacuum, internally in the carb. That might explain why the choke puller had little/no vacuum when idling.

The next picture is the 73 partially open.

https://flic.kr/p/sgK8yC

There are more holes (the charcoal canister purge, and others). When using the charcoal canister purge as a vacuum source for the econ/choke diaphragms, they see full manifold vacuum after slightly opening the throttle plate (similar to the 1969 I have).

Originally, the 1973 Economizer diaphragm and choke puller diaphragm see vacuum only from the notch in the carb base (when you block the groove near the notch, the diaphragm does not pull when accelerating, so no vacuum).

Dan, my 1969 does not have charcoal canister, not in the car nor in the factory service manual (carburetor vents to atmosphere, and there is no vent tubes from the fuel tank. In these models, these mods started in 1970). It does not have air cleaner diaphragms either. (It does not even have hydraulic steering!, but that is another story and has nothing to do with this ;-))

Now, as I said: if the choke pull diaphragm has vacuum from idle, it will be pulling against the divorced thermostatic choke during warm up (probably hastening the transition from warmup idle to warm idle... no not touch that accelerator, or you will get out the cam sooner!). The difference will be function of how much force each one can exert on the choke lever.

I got worried about the durability of the choke puller diaphragm if in manifold vacuum... I guess the 1969 has an easier life seeing less or no vacuum during idle, but it might not matter, or (I asume) emission reduction was more important (getting out of the warmup idle as soon as possible).

This was my rationale for doing what I did. I think what I did is reversible, and I might not have done great damage, but now it appears unnecessary. It would be interesting testing how much vacuum is required to open the economizer valve.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:50 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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And the manifold vacuum at idle. Are the pressures different between a 69 with no EGR and a 73 with EGR?

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:53 pm 
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Quote:
Well, the simple answer is: the mod I did on the 1973 carb allows manifold vacuum to the choke puller diaphragm and the economizer diagram when just opening the throtte plate, and not at closed plate (as the 1969 carb appears to works).
This was not a good or helpful thing to do. You didn't improve or fix anything, you messed up the carburetor. Put it back the way it's supposed to be, if you can. If not, get another, un-glooped-up carburetor and don't make random modifications.
Quote:
When installing the 1969 carb in the car, I can see that at idle the choke puller diaphragm is not under vacuum
That's not correct, unless the choke pull-off is faulty or not hooked up right.
Quote:
(Please, could somebody with 1969 or earlier carbs confirm this behavior?
No, because it's wrong.
Quote:
When I installed the 1973 in the car, I saw it under vacuum when in idle (pulling the choke open).
This is the correct behavior in all years.
Quote:
I saw that difference, and thought that this was a wrong operating condition
Ready...FIRE!!!...Aim. :-)

Next time you have a question of whether "A" or "B" is correct, save yourself time and hassle and ask on here first, before getting out the cutting torch (or the epoxy, or the drill, or...).
Quote:
One thing is clear: the Economizer Diaphragm and the Choke Puller Diaphragm are subjected to the same vacuum (they are connected via the groove in the carb base)
Yup, they both get full manifold vacuum from below the throttle plate.
Quote:
The holes under the plate are the PCV, the idle fuel, and the transfer slot. When opened, the distributor vacuum hole appears. I think the economizer vacuum is connected to the transfer slot or the distributor vacuum, internally in the carb.
Nope. Full manifold vacuum at all times.
Quote:
When using the charcoal canister purge as a vacuum source for the econ/choke diaphragms
This is wrong. The "Economizer" and the choke pull-off diaphragm need full manifold vacuum at all times.
Quote:
Dan, my 1969 does not have charcoal canister, not in the car nor in the factory service manual
Wait, you have a 1969 car? OK, and all you want to do is put a 1973 carb on it for some reason? If that's all you're trying to do, it's a cinch: plug the EGR venturi vacuum nipple, plug the canister purge nipple. Leave the bowl vent nipple open to atmosphere. Connect the distributor vacuum advance and the PCV hose to their respective ports. Use the 1973 carb base gasket. Bang, done. No epoxy or tees or any such needed.

But the 1973 carbs aren't very happy carbs even in perfect new condition; they tend to make driveability problems. It would be better to install a 1969 or similar-year carburetor. If you don't have a good one, I have a new (not "remanufactured" junk) one on shelf, and it even has the throttle body fitting for the throttle plate anti-ice system described here which your '69 has unless someone has swapped on a non-1969 exhaust manifold.
Quote:
Now, as I said: if the choke pull diaphragm has vacuum from idle, it will be pulling against the divorced thermostatic choke during warm up
Which is exactly what's supposed to happen.
Quote:
I got worried about the durability of the choke puller diaphragm if in manifold vacuum
Don't be. It's not an issue. Never has been.
Quote:
I guess the 1969 has an easier life seeing less or no vacuum during idle
You're still guessing at reasons for something you've completely misunderstood, though. The choke pull-off diaphragm gets full manifold vacuum at all times on all carbs in all years.
Quote:
It would be interesting testing how much vacuum is required to open the economizer valve.
Vacuum doesn't open the "Economizer" valve, it closes it. A spring opens it.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Wed May 20, 2015 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 4:41 am 
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Supercharged
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Quote:
Ready...FIRE!!!...Aim.
When did Dick Chaney join the board?

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:43 am 
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TBI Slant 6
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Location: Houston, TX
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Quote:
the 1973 carbs aren't very happy carbs even in perfect new condition; they tend to make driveability problems. It would be better to install a 1969 or similar-year carburetor. If you don't have a good one, I have a new (not "remanufactured" junk) one on shelf, and it even has the throttle body fitting for the throttle plate anti-ice system described [url]here[/url] which your '69 has unless someone has swapped on a non-1969 exhaust manifold.
A "new" non used 1973 is what I found. Great driveability as it is now (compared with what I had, at least). However, your offer is tempting... I'm money tight now, but I'll check with you when things change, if available. (Could you repost the link on the anti-ice system, please?)
Quote:
Vacuum doesn't open the "Economizer" valve, it closes it. A spring opens it.
D'OH!!!!. Point taken, ugh.

Thanks Dan, and everybody...

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/6 Dodge Charger 69
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:47 am 
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TBI Slant 6
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Quote:
Quote:
Ready...FIRE!!!...Aim.
When did Dick Chaney join the board?
DUCK!!!!, no!, no! everybody DUCK!

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
Image...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Turbo EFI

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Good pictures. On the 73 carb the port feeding the economizer is restricted , were the 69 carb is not. Also on flange,bowl side where throttle shaft enters the side wall of carb, there is small opening in flange,the 69 is solid at this spot. Down in this opening is a small hole. When i open my carb full throttle a small hole appears in throttle shaft. that lines up with first hole. Sticking a probe threw this opening{carb wide open},probe comes out in hole next to main system air bleed , just above venturi. Looks like this is venting some thing at full throttle.Does your carb have this?


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Anti-ice link fixed

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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:43 am 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:39 pm
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Dan, did a temporary connection of my economizer-choke diaphragm circuit to the air filter vacuum. It behaves better (the way it should, if I understood correctly). Whenever I have some time, I'll remove the gloop and connect everything to original conditions, Thanks again.

Matv91, I'll check in my spare carb 1973 if I can see what you described, and let you know.

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/6 Dodge Charger 69
Image...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...


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