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More no start issues
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58770		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey! I actually knew what I was talking about back then! Yes, the loose valves is another way of verifying TDC on the compression stroke. At TDC on the compression stroke, the lifters should both be completely off the cam lobes so there should be no load on the valve train for cylinder #1. Cylinder #6 should have both lifters on their respective cam lobes and the valve train should be "loaded" and not able to be wiggled.

It sounds like you had cylinder 1 at TDC on compression, but it never hurts to double check.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Hey! I actually knew what I was talking about back then! Yes, the loose valves is another way of verifying TDC on the compression stroke. At TDC on the compression stroke, the lifters should both be completely off the cam lobes so there should be no load on the valve train for cylinder #1. Cylinder #6 should have both lifters on their respective cam lobes and the valve train should be "loaded" and not able to be wiggled.

It sounds like you had cylinder 1 at TDC on compression, but it never hurts to double check.
yayyyyyy good ok. That helps set my mind at ease then.

Got the battery charged and reinstalled. The first try I was still all the way advanced from the hold down bracket. Here's that.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... 13azmo.mp4

Then I moved the diz CCW just a bit, so it's like.. just halfway between all the way advanced (top of the hold down bracket) and the middle of the bracket. So I guess that would make it 2/3 all the way advanced? Sounds better, but wanted to check back in before messing with it further.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... ecl1z1.mp4

On both of these, vacuum advance is still capped, though I didn't put any more carb cleaner in nor did I hit the gas pedal at all.
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Try removing the hold down bolt to give you more adjustment of the distributor. It sounded better with the timing advance (turned list. CCW), so try turning it a little bit more.
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just re-read your post. You say the distributor was "all the way advanced" when it was "at the top of the hold down bracket." I assume you are saying that the hold down bolt was touching the top of the slot in the hold down bracket. If that is the case, then the distributor was actually all the way RETARDED, not ADVANCED. Turning the distributor clockwise (and thereby putting the hold down bolt at the top of the slot in the hold down) retards the timing. Turning the distributor counterclockwise (putting the bolt at the bottom of the slot) advances the timing.

Just double checking we are all talking about the same thing.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I just re-read your post. You say the distributor was "all the way advanced" when it was "at the top of the hold down bracket." I assume you are saying that the hold down bolt was touching the top of the slot in the hold down bracket. If that is the case, then the distributor was actually all the way RETARDED, not ADVANCED. Turning the distributor clockwise (and thereby putting the hold down bolt at the top of the slot in the hold down) retards the timing. Turning the distributor counterclockwise (putting the bolt at the bottom of the slot) advances the timing.

Just double checking we are all talking about the same thing.
OH BLOODY HELL.

Ok. Went back and readjusted distributor. Here it is with the hold down bolt at 2/3 towards the bottom of the bracket slot, and then all the way at the bottom of the slot. IT'S GETTING CLOSER.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... 77dpwd.mp4

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... kweaot.mp4
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yep, getting closer. I say pull that hold down bolt so you can spin the distributor freely. Once you get it started, eyeball where the hold down slot is and see if you can put the bolt back or if you need to move the distributor drive gear a tooth.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Yep, getting closer. I say pull that hold down bolt so you can spin the distributor freely. Once you get it started, eyeball where the hold down slot is and see if you can put the bolt back or if you need to move the distributor drive gear a tooth.
Hold down bracket is already all the way- I think I need to move the drive gear a tooth. Any advice on doing so? I figured make sure the rotor is pointing at 12 o'clock or something similar to easily identify to take out, but I'm not sure about seeing how it has moved a tooth over.
Author:  Reed [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you have removed the hold down bolt then you should have enough play in the distributor rotation to spin it far beyond one tooth in either direction.

Rotate the engine to TDC by hand and pop the distributor cap. The rotor should be pointed under either the #1 or #6 plug tower. If it isn't, rotate the distributor body until it is.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Before and after positioning photos of the rotor. From the way it now sounds starting, it's in a much happier place:

Image

Image

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... oae0e3.mp4


The engine sounds so close to catching - for a second, I thought it had. Vacuum advance is still capped, threw some carb cleaner down the throat and pumped the pedal twice. Distributor was again installed 5* BTDC as per DI's instructions. Hold down bolt is currently around the middle of the bracket.

Tried to think of whatever other information I could get that might be relevant - I took a video of the fuel shot down the throat. Truthfully I don't know what's "healthy" and what's not, not really having had anything to compare. It seems to be coming out forcefully, but it's still going down the side of the throat, not spraying out the way I thought it would (accelerator pump is new from rebuild kit).

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... w0yqlt.mp4

I torqued down the carb to intake bolts, but I'm still seeing a tiny bit of fuel seepage from the base of the carb (gasket is new from same rebuild kit), and some of the throttle linkage had a light coating of fuel too?

Image
Image
Image

:shrug:
Author:  Reed [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Three thoughts:

(1) I am not see much of any fuel squirting into the carburetor throat when you open the throttle. There should be a VERY strong squirt, very noticeable, when you open the throttle. However, you may have an empty float bowl so there is nothing to pump out. BUT if you are seeing more than nothing or just a dribble, that should be enough to at least get the motor started.

(2) The fuel puddling and seeping out the throttle shaft may be signs of a worn carburetor casting around the throttle shaft. This is a metal-on-metal junction and it will eventually wear out. You can get it rebushed, but unless the worn acting is creating a HUGE vacuum leak, I don't think it is keeping the car from starting.

(3) I see you have installed Pertronix ignition. Have you double checked for spark? The rotor looks like it is in the correct neighborhood to let you start the engine, so it may be you aren't getting any spark. I have used Pertronix on wo cars, a 72 Satellite and a 74 Pinto, and it worked great on both cars, but it has to be set up just right. You have to get the air gap at the pickup set correctly and get the unit wired correctly.

I think your next step should be to verify that you are actually getting spark at the spark plugs.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm watching your vids with the sound turned up. It sounds very much like you've got compression on only one-and-a-half cylinders. Are all six spark plugs installed? If so, you've got mechanical problems of one kind or another. Listen to the difference in rhythm between your starter sound ("Wheeeeee-DyehDyeeeeeeeeeeDyehDyeeeeeeeeeeeeee") and the sound (click to listen) of a starter cranking a Slant-6 engine with good compression on all six cylinders ("Whee-Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee", etc). Each of those "D"s is a compression event.

Once you've got the compression issue fixed (missing spark plugs, stuck valves, valve lash adjusted way too tight, or bigger mechanical problems like faulty pistons or rings, very faulty head gasket, etc) then look at this post in re distributor phasing.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Hoo boy, ok.
I'm going to be doing a list of things tomorrow, Dan and Reed both have good points//things for me to look at.

Whilst I'm drawing up said list and figuring out a good order of operations, I do have a few questions:

Is the only way to test for spark at the plugs to just crank the engine for 5-10 seconds at a time and use a spark tester? I have one of the indicator pen-style testers, rather than the inline plug-in kind, so I could be fairly quick and hopefully not have to crank too terribly much.

Also with looking for the stuck valves - I'm guessing just manually turn the fan and watch for all the valves to go through their sequence, and if they don't take a closer look?

Valve lash should be ok, though without it running it's been hard to tell. If anything it's actually a little looser than it should be, but that was feeler gauging it cold, so I'm probably in the ballpark. I will double check that though.

I'm also planning to pull the plugs and take a look, and possibly get a replacement set. They were new as of about a month ago, but with all these start attempts I'm wondering how fouled they are and whether that may be complicating the issue any.



I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed and pouring out some nice fresh oil libations to the car gods that it is not, as Dan mentioned, a bigger mechanical problem as I'm rather ill equipped to handle that about now.
Author:  Reed [ Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:44 am ]
Post subject: 
All of the diagnostic steps you need to take will be made much simpler with a remote start switch. That way you can spin the motor while standing over the engine and watch the valves or test the spark by holding the end of the plug wire about 1/8-1/4 inch away from the valve cover.

I recommend you get a remote start switch (see HERE , but that seems a little pricey for nothing but a switch and some wire. You could very easily put one of these together yourself from scrap wire laying around) and use it to check for spark. Then loosen every valve adjustment nut one full turn. That should loosen up the valve lash enough to let any valves that are currently lashed too tight to close. Remove and clean all the spark plugs.

Then try starting again. If it doesn't start, try a compression check and report back the results.
Author:  stephaniebrite77 [ Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
All of the diagnostic steps you need to take will be made much simpler with a remote start switch. That way you can spin the motor while standing over the engine and watch the valves or test the spark by holding the end of the plug wire about 1/8-1/4 inch away from the valve cover.

I recommend you get a remote start switch (see HERE , but that seems a little pricey for nothing but a switch and some wire. You could very easily put one of these together yourself from scrap wire laying around) and use it to check for spark. Then loosen every valve adjustment nut one full turn. That should loosen up the valve lash enough to let any valves that are currently lashed too tight to close. Remove and clean all the spark plugs.

Then try starting again. If it doesn't start, try a compression check and report back the results.

Yep yep. Project tonight since I'll be at the theatre late is actually to wire a switch up myself. We have plenty of parts here.
I'm more just making sure that there isn't an alternative way to test for spark *besides* doing that - I worry about spinning it so much without it actually catching.

Any particular solvent to clean the spark plugs with? I imagine it depends on what they may (probably are) gunked up with, but didn't want to just use whatever I had laying around (which at this point is just carb cleaner and PB blaster, which both seem.. not great to put on plugs, unless it's ok after they dry?) if there was something specific that worked well.

Mostly I'm just trying to be very very careful to not @#$% up my engine any more.
Author:  Reed [ Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Depends if the plugs are actually fouled. If they look wet, just get a rag and wipe them off. Run the rag through the electrode gap. Be sure to verify the gap and wiping the plugs down. You used to be able to buy spark plug cleaners that were a mini-sandblasting cabinet that blasted the tip of the plug clean. I would love to get one of those to clean plugs.

Spinning the engine won't hurt it since you should have good oil flow and the motor isn't actually running. You need to spin it a little bit to check spark, if nothing else.
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