Slant Six Forum :: First fire successfull....but some issues

For the moment... let the rear seal leak and focus on getting everything else running well.
Break-in the new engine... with it leaking, to be sure there are no other serious issues.
If the break-in goes well, regroup & develop a plan to fix the seal leak.
If the break-in does not go well... the shop get's it back anyway.
Just my 2 cents...
DD

Quote:

A friend suggested that if it is a rope seal, it may need to swell a little....

I doubt it's a rope seal...if your builder bought a Felpro or Victor-Reinz master gasket set, then you got the neoprene rear seal...it would be counter productive to buy a $90 gasket set then blow another $20 on a rope seal for the engine... and as a professional, if they did use one they would tell you so you don't panic after it weeps, along with recommended break in procedure...

didn't polish the crank knurling where the seal goes

16' initial is a lot,bring it back and do the lash. ..... Check the valve lash to see what it actually is.

I hate oil leaks,please don't drive it excessively on the roads pouring oil out like that, I've ridden motorcycles and oil on a wet road from leaking cars is plain dangerous.

Quote:

didn't polish the crank knurling where the seal goes

when I freshened the slant on the 68 Barracuda with new gaskets I reused the OE crank that had the cross hatch and the OE rear seal carrier that originally had a rope seal, replaced the rope seal with the two piece neoprene seal,, with the crankshaft and rods all buttoned down, I looked closely to see where the neoprene seal lip ran in relationship to the cross hatch. Prying the crank to see the extremes of the crank thrust bearing play, the lip and the cross hatch get close, but do not overlap.
No rear seal leaks on this engine.

when I completely rebuilt the slant in the 83 D150 me and WV had the engine out and back in at least two times maybe three times addressing a pesky rear end leak,, at first, figured it was a rear seal and completely redid all that with no improvement,, eventually, with paying really close attention during dis assembly, figured out that engine oil was wicking up the bolt threads that hold the rear seal carrier,, on the 83 block the rear seal carrier retaining bolt holes are drilled through on both bolt holes, and on one side only, oil was traversing across the mounting face, wicking up the bolt threads , getting picked up by the spinning flywheel, coating the rear of the block, inside of the flywheel housing,, never was a big leak, get a spot of oil on the floor the size of a quarter,, coated the bolt threads with RTV and capped the drill through with RTV,, three years and 24K miles later on leaks.

if the engine is pulled, take your time in the teardown process to closly observe where the leak may be origination, then take action to fix it,, realize it may be more than one engine pull.

That's an ordinary slow-closing throttle dashpot. It's not harming anything as long as it's adjusted correctly, but it's also not necessary or particularly helpful on a car with an automatic transmission.

Reed, are you sure about that choke lever? It looks like the \6 item to me. If we could see the carb throat without the air cleaner installed, we'd have some more visual clues as to whether this is a V8 or a \6 carb.

Shadango, don't get too upset over the engine not yet running correctly. It's way too early to worry about an incorrect camshaft or anything of that nature. Clearly your carb and ignition adjustments aren't yet dialled in correctly, and there's still the question of your valve adjustment -- I think you'll probably be able to get the engine running well without anything like a major teardown.

As for cam № 2106, no, that's not a Comp cam, it's the Oregon Cam grind number for the RV10RDP.

http://u225.torque.net/cars/SL6/docs/RV10-RDP_Cam_Specs.pdf

Above is the link to the cam specs. To me a .015" lash would equate to about the same as a .015" lifter rise taking into account a level of valve train flex and the 1.5 rocker ratio.Looking at the card the difference between .010" and .020" lifter rise is 38' on the intake and 64' of duration on the exhaust. Averaging all that out would give you roughly 271' in and 285' ex at .015" lash, but these are just averages,but good enough for this example. As you can see from these specs this cam will go from a 291' at .010" lash,to about 271' at .015" to 253' at .020" lash. The idle will vary markedly with the varying lashes. Correct lash is critical or you will chase your tail

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:39 am ]
Post subject:
Yeah it was a Victor-Reinz kit. Cant tell by the description/picture on the package I have....but what you say makes sense. This sucks bad. Sorry to be whining. Just seems like nothing can go easy. I just want to get this car on the road again so my kid can be happy and I can move on. I expected we would run into issues due to our own screwups....which is why we moved painfully slow...... And I knew that even with a professional rebuild there could be issues like this...was just hoping for the odds to be in our favor.....and now the possibility that the "ran great when I had it" carb could be bad......at wits end. I dont know if I have the energy to tear it all out and start over. Not to mention the extra costs involved now, and the weather challenges to come (we have to do this in our driveway as the garage ceiling is too low to allow for the engine to be pulled). But not many options I guess. 'Suck it up buttercup' comes to mind but.......ugh. Just feeling defeated.

Author:	sandy in BC [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:01 am ]
Post subject:
Take some time to regroup. Set a date to resume work on the car. Talk to the machine shop and find out the facts. Your experience is mostly normal. An auto hobby is an on going experience with a wide variety of results.....enjoy the good alongside the bad.

Author:	Doctor Dodge [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:16 am ]
Post subject:
For the moment... let the rear seal leak and focus on getting everything else running well. Break-in the new engine... with it leaking, to be sure there are no other serious issues. If the break-in goes well, regroup & develop a plan to fix the seal leak. If the break-in does not go well... the shop get's it back anyway. Just my 2 cents... DD

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:33 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: For the moment... let the rear seal leak and focus on getting everything else running well. Break-in the new engine... with it leaking, to be sure there are no other serious issues. If the break-in goes well, regroup & develop a plan to fix the seal leak. If the break-in does not go well... the shop get's it back anyway. Just my 2 cents... DD I guess that makes sense. hadn't thought that far ahead,...you are right....there could be other issues afoot.....and its "just" an oil leak..... .....hard to concentrate on all the other setup which could be wasted if it has to come out again..... The engine has had the initial break in as prescribed by the builder....pre-primed and then run at 1500- 2000 rpms for a half hour, changing the RPMs every few minutes. We did that. So we are now dealing with the engine not wanting to idle in gear at all.....have to keep a foot on the gas and baby it.... Our timing is set at about 16 degrees in idle with the vac advance disconnected now, in park....had it even higher at first......cant seem to get it to idle at anything less than the 16 though now.....and it seems roughish to me. It has the mild 2106/ dutra RV10 cam from oregon cam. at least that is what I ordered. Looking at the cam sheet I thought it said .015 for intake AND exhaust which doesnt seem right....have to study the sheet I guess.... Anyways the lousy idle speed led me to look at the idle and fast idle screws.. I bought the carb used from someone who said it ran "flawlessly" on their slant with no issues at all and I have no reason to believe otherwise at this juncture. When I looked at the idle and fast idle screws though, they are run all the way in...with just about no more idle or fast idle left. That seemed odd to me. But maybe not --I dont know the BBD at all. Carb shown as I got it, below.... I tried running them out and of course the idle drops and it wants to stall..... I guess the next thing then would be to check the lash at hot since I guess too tight will make it run this way, per several folks here. I can get the engine to run run at 750 to 800 rpms, rough but no lower.... is that low enough to set them while running? Watched a youtube video on it and seems like they cranked it much lower? What about setting them hot but not running at first and see if that helps things at all then maybe I can get it to idle lower and get timing more normal and then do it running? This pic shows the screws I am referring to...

Author:	SlantSteve [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Probably not a rope seal...
Quote: Quote: A friend suggested that if it is a rope seal, it may need to swell a little.... I doubt it's a rope seal...if your builder bought a Felpro or Victor-Reinz master gasket set, then you got the neoprene rear seal...it would be counter productive to buy a $90 gasket set then blow another $20 on a rope seal for the engine... and as a professional, if they did use one they would tell you so you don't panic after it weeps, along with recommended break in procedure... If it's not a rope seal that good news to me. ACL still supply them over here,but they are a newer asbestos free material that's just plain impossible to get fitting correctly. Even the two piece neoprene is old but works well from what I've seen,but many guys now mod engines during rebuild to fit a one piece,never any issues. I'm unsure of whether there is a seal suitable for this mod to a slant. 16' initial is a lot,bring it back and do the lash. I hate oil leaks,please don't drive it excessively on the roads pouring oil out like that, I've ridden motorcycles and oil on a wet road from leaking cars is plain dangerous. Check the valve lash to see what it actually is.

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First fire successfull....but some issues https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60390	Page 2 of 6

Author:	Reed [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:
One thing I noticed in your pictures is that your carb has the V-8 choke linkage piece on it, not the slant choke linkage piece. The V-8 linkage piece will not allow the choke to open all the way and thereby render the curb idle speed screw useless. The engine will stay on the fast idle cam (unless someone grossly misadjusts the fast idle cam linkage) and will idle very high. Are you verifying that when the engine is fully warmed up the fast idle cam is completely out from under the fast idle screw? If not, warm the engine up and manually take the fast idle out from under the fast idle screw. See if you can then use your curb idle speed screw to set the idle speed. I agree with the others that 16 BTDC is too much advance for the curb idle timing setting. I would start at 10 BTDC, but you won't be able to set that properly until you get the engine idling at 750 RPM or less. Another thing- what is that big dashpot thing hanging off the front og the carb? It doesn't look like it is doing anything. I would remove that.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:
That's an ordinary slow-closing throttle dashpot. It's not harming anything as long as it's adjusted correctly, but it's also not necessary or particularly helpful on a car with an automatic transmission. Reed, are you sure about that choke lever? It looks like the \6 item to me. If we could see the carb throat without the air cleaner installed, we'd have some more visual clues as to whether this is a V8 or a \6 carb. Shadango, don't get too upset over the engine not yet running correctly. It's way too early to worry about an incorrect camshaft or anything of that nature. Clearly your carb and ignition adjustments aren't yet dialled in correctly, and there's still the question of your valve adjustment -- I think you'll probably be able to get the engine running well without anything like a major teardown. As for cam № 2106, no, that's not a Comp cam, it's the Oregon Cam grind number for the RV10. The RV10RDP version is 2106R.

Author:	SlantSteve [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:
http://u225.torque.net/cars/SL6/docs/RV ... _Specs.pdf Above is the link to the cam specs. To me a .015" lash would equate to about the same as a .015" lifter rise taking into account a level of valve train flex and the 1.5 rocker ratio.Looking at the card the difference between .010" and .020" lifter rise is 38' on the intake and 64' of duration on the exhaust. Averaging all that out would give you roughly 271' in and 285' ex at .015" lash, but these are just averages,but good enough for this example. As you can see from these specs this cam will go from a 291' at .010" lash,to about 271' at .015" to 253' at .020" lash. The idle will vary markedly with the varying lashes. Correct lash is critical or you will chase your tail

Author:	DadTruck [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: didn't polish the crank knurling where the seal goes when I freshened the slant on the 68 Barracuda with new gaskets I reused the OE crank that had the cross hatch and the OE rear seal carrier that originally had a rope seal, replaced the rope seal with the two piece neoprene seal,, with the crankshaft and rods all buttoned down, I looked closely to see where the neoprene seal lip ran in relationship to the cross hatch. Prying the crank to see the extremes of the crank thrust bearing play, the lip and the cross hatch get close, but do not overlap. No rear seal leaks on this engine. when I completely rebuilt the slant in the 83 D150 me and WV had the engine out and back in at least two times maybe three times addressing a pesky rear end leak,, at first, figured it was a rear seal and completely redid all that with no improvement,, eventually, with paying really close attention during dis assembly, figured out that engine oil was wicking up the bolt threads that hold the rear seal carrier,, on the 83 block the rear seal carrier retaining bolt holes are drilled through on both bolt holes, and on one side only, oil was traversing across the mounting face, wicking up the bolt threads , getting picked up by the spinning flywheel, coating the rear of the block, inside of the flywheel housing,, never was a big leak, get a spot of oil on the floor the size of a quarter,, coated the bolt threads with RTV and capped the drill through with RTV,, three years and 24K miles later no leaks. if the engine is pulled, take your time in the tear down process to closely observe every area where the leak may be originating, then take action to address all possibilities. Accept that it may be more than one engine pull.

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Probably not a rope seal...
Quote: 16' initial is a lot,bring it back and do the lash. ..... Check the valve lash to see what it actually is. I had tried a couple times to bring the timing down to 10 or 12 but it just doesnt want to idle at that timing. And there is no curb idle/fast idle adjustment left to help..... Quote: I hate oil leaks,please don't drive it excessively on the roads pouring oil out like that, I've ridden motorcycles and oil on a wet road from leaking cars is plain dangerous. I am right there with you...I ride every day...commute to work....and I hate leakers too.....and trust me, I dont want to be one. Plus, I paid good money to have a leak free, good running new engine.....I want it leak free or as close as possible. The builder contacted me back to day and reiterated what others here said -- pull the inspection plate and see what I can see.... He also said -- "MAY HAVE TO TAP THE REAR OF PAN WITH HAMMER AND A PUNCH.IS PCV VALVE WORKING OK?" Pretty sure the PCV valve is not the issue.....its new and the crankcase breather is also new and open to the air at this point.....not sure if there is something else we did that could be pressurizing the crankcase to cause a leak?

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: didn't polish the crank knurling where the seal goes when I freshened the slant on the 68 Barracuda with new gaskets I reused the OE crank that had the cross hatch and the OE rear seal carrier that originally had a rope seal, replaced the rope seal with the two piece neoprene seal,, with the crankshaft and rods all buttoned down, I looked closely to see where the neoprene seal lip ran in relationship to the cross hatch. Prying the crank to see the extremes of the crank thrust bearing play, the lip and the cross hatch get close, but do not overlap. No rear seal leaks on this engine. when I completely rebuilt the slant in the 83 D150 me and WV had the engine out and back in at least two times maybe three times addressing a pesky rear end leak,, at first, figured it was a rear seal and completely redid all that with no improvement,, eventually, with paying really close attention during dis assembly, figured out that engine oil was wicking up the bolt threads that hold the rear seal carrier,, on the 83 block the rear seal carrier retaining bolt holes are drilled through on both bolt holes, and on one side only, oil was traversing across the mounting face, wicking up the bolt threads , getting picked up by the spinning flywheel, coating the rear of the block, inside of the flywheel housing,, never was a big leak, get a spot of oil on the floor the size of a quarter,, coated the bolt threads with RTV and capped the drill through with RTV,, three years and 24K miles later on leaks. if the engine is pulled, take your time in the teardown process to closly observe where the leak may be origination, then take action to fix it,, realize it may be more than one engine pull. "realize it may be more than one engine pull." My heart just sank.....LOL But this is good info.....thanks!

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: That's an ordinary slow-closing throttle dashpot. It's not harming anything as long as it's adjusted correctly, but it's also not necessary or particularly helpful on a car with an automatic transmission. Reed, are you sure about that choke lever? It looks like the \6 item to me. If we could see the carb throat without the air cleaner installed, we'd have some more visual clues as to whether this is a V8 or a \6 carb. Shadango, don't get too upset over the engine not yet running correctly. It's way too early to worry about an incorrect camshaft or anything of that nature. Clearly your carb and ignition adjustments aren't yet dialled in correctly, and there's still the question of your valve adjustment -- I think you'll probably be able to get the engine running well without anything like a major teardown. As for cam № 2106, no, that's not a Comp cam, it's the Oregon Cam grind number for the RV10RDP. Thanks for the info on the cam grind number....I got myself confused...I guess panic will do that....LOL..I actually have in my notes that same info you had given elsewhere...and thanks for the reassurance. I really do appreciate it..... Here are a couple more pics of the carb if they help. It does have the "notches" in the base like a /6 carb should have (I think)

Author:	DadTruck [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:
and maybe the article linked below is posted in one of the replies, if not here it is,,,review this with your engine builder. http://www.slantsix.org/articles/gasket ... n-seal.htm

Author:	shadango [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: http://u225.torque.net/cars/SL6/docs/RV10-RDP_Cam_Specs.pdf Above is the link to the cam specs. To me a .015" lash would equate to about the same as a .015" lifter rise taking into account a level of valve train flex and the 1.5 rocker ratio.Looking at the card the difference between .010" and .020" lifter rise is 38' on the intake and 64' of duration on the exhaust. Averaging all that out would give you roughly 271' in and 285' ex at .015" lash, but these are just averages,but good enough for this example. As you can see from these specs this cam will go from a 291' at .010" lash,to about 271' at .015" to 253' at .020" lash. The idle will vary markedly with the varying lashes. Correct lash is critical or you will chase your tail Here is the cam sheet I was given.....seems like all the numbers are about the same buit prescribes a .015/.015 lash?

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Author:	DusterIdiot [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Yep...
This cam is supposed to be a copy of the mild Mopar Performance '243' Cam with Mopar's good slow ramps, the card confirms it should be set hot at .015... that being said... I would set it cold at .020, see if it fires and runs OK, then walk the lash in to the .015 value... it may even like .018 better... (if it were a comp cam the lash would be a .012). I agree with Reed the dashpot is for manual transmissions and is not desired on automatic equipped cars, remove it.