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| Wanted: Hyperpak Intake Manifold https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60620 |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Thanks... |
Thanks 'zilla... a bit more conversation than want ad, but lots to think about before going this route to make it work right.... |
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| Author: | B Body Bill [ Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Again, Thanks. I get it. A lot to contemplate. There's what I want, what's possible and what I can afford. I'm paying attention. I still may have to try a few things despite it not being street friendly but I do like my street cars a little gritty. Thanks for your help. Will post more questions and responses tonight. 
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| Author: | lgu32 [ Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Quote: 3) The long rams will help with torque in the heavy car, but you will need to help the engine and run a combination of better rear gears and an overdrive if you are going to street drive it(.... you will want to split the plenum if you are wanting to shift the powerband from 4000 rpm+ to something closer to 3000 rpm +)
How does one go about splitting the plenum? |
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| Author: | Greg Ondayko [ Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Splitting manifold for sectors 1-2-3 and 4-5-6 helped me with low end missing torque. I built a custom made carburetor/throttle body adapter carrying a divider wall. No need to modify the manifold at all. I use Clifford 4bbl manifold w/o heater. Thank you, Greg |
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| Author: | lgu32 [ Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
 Hand fabricated 4mm aluminum spacer welded to previous throttle body adapter. Not needed to be exact sealed. Mine has 1mm gap to manifold floor. Vacuum outlet left to front section which I have used also O2 sensored for fuel injection. Seems to be good so. |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Herein lies the problem... |
Quote: I use Clifford 4bbl manifold w/o heater.
Yes, a shorty manifold that shares none of the runner or plenum architecture the long ram manifold has...so here are some of the issuesto consider... I had already explored using a removeable divider since I had reviewed a few articles on Zora Duntov's Corvette V-8 manifolds from the 80's and 90's that had the removable splitter and some splitters had different sized holes in them to even out the mix if the cylinder heads had a slight imbalance to them... but there are a few different issues that are unique to the clifford hyperpak casting.... The wall for the split between 3 and 4 stops about 3" from the lip of the carburator mounting hole and is notched like a "V" with the tip pointing toward the head... also the plenum on the far side has a fair sized setback so you won't be able to "slide" a partition in place without cutting the plenum in one place or another... also the floor has casting ridges to keep the puddles fuel in place to keep it from "slugging" a cylinder and it's not easy to get in there to rub them out.... The last run of HyperPak manifolds from Clifford have casting flaws in them that would need to be repaired. I also had found out that the manifold is sensitive enough that it can benefit from having a 1/4" to 3/8" hole in the divider to 'even' out the difference in the mix between the 2 "halves" for street driving. But if fully split with no other leaks, it improves the mid range torque, and slightly lowers the rpm band that the ram tuning effect comes into play... I also had found that standard JB Weld under continuous exposure to rich fuel mixes and heat cycling tended to soften it up and cause it to flake off the base metal, even when it cleaned, prepped/scuffed.... Another issue it underhood clearance... Shorty manifolds have the carb sit in the "stock" position where the hood has room from the mounting flange on the manifold... since the carb almost sits over the fenderwell on a 67-76 a-body...if no adaptor is used (carb mounted to the manifold itself), you can use a spectre open element pie tin, and a 2" tall element as long as you drill a hole in the hood bracket for the wingnut... you can also modify a stock V-8 pietin like Greg has done to fit.... anything else and you'll be cutting the hood to make it all fit... (B and C bodies should be roomy enough to work under...) One last thing to consider as well, is, the manifold can suffer from reversion (vibration and wave pulses that buck and disrupt the normal flow and intake of the air fuel mixture), so cam selections tend to want a lobe separation that makes the overlap event 'tighter' like a turbo cam would want... for daily driving an RV style of cam already has a very short overlap event and the "street" modified hyperpak will shine... eventually if you pick a large cam, the divider will limit the power curve available to the build... also the clifford runner size is smaller than the Dutra Fat Pak which allows for better port velocity at most rpms, but the Fat Pak variant will breathe better like the Clifford Shorty's that have large ports at race/ram tune RPMs.... |
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| Author: | lgu32 [ Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Anyway worth of testing if low end torque is thin. I used aluminium for welding aluminium and the divider is thick enough to take all pressure pulse vibrations on it. |
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| Author: | jcc [ Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Not sure how in depth the "split" plenum has been discussed here. Based on what i have read so far on this thread, seems to me the real benefit is mainly just a less disruptive air flow path because of the abrupt 90 degree turn at the floor of the intake. Reminds of aircraft dealing with wind shear from storm induced downdrafts. If my thinking has any merit, a tall "turtle" solution would seem a better solution. |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A few other thoughts... |
Quote: seems to me the real benefit is mainly just a less disruptive air flow path because of the abrupt 90 degree turn at the floor of the intake.
I'm going to highly recommend reading David Vizard's How to Build Horsepower Vol.2 it deals with a lot of science behind intake manfolds....If most of the problem was in smoothing out the air flow then I would have to say that a few locals have actually seen better results out of the Clifford Shorty by adding a 3" spacer to it which adds a bit more path, plenum, and gives the stream of air/fuel emulsion more time to mix after it makes it past the throttle plates... The benefit comes down to a couple of items: limiting the plenum space available to a specific set of cylinders, which changes the rpm that the manifold is tuned to... not so critical in a shorty manifold since the 3 different length runners allow the manifold to function at different rpms... lengthening the manifold brings a new set of variables to the field, in that it changes the rpm that the manifold is 'effective' at, due to the wave mechanics of the pressure wave traveling between the carb and intake valve (ram tuning).... The clifford hyperpak tends to come on at 4000 rpm... splitting the manifold lowers this rpm boundary and makes it a bit more accessible more toward 3500 rpm.... Member dyno sheets have shown that in this powerband the volumetric efficiency of the engine can exceed 100% (boost builds will always be over 100%... Hi Po NA builds approach 90% range at best...older stock motors 70-80%) The other benefit is that the divider when coupled with true dual exhaust or split headers, allows the user with a very tuneable carb to properly dial in the 1-2-3 bank and the 4-5-6 bank like a V- style engine... with the hyperpak in an A-body engine bay, with restrictive airflow to the firewall and under the car in the engine bay, a heat spot forms at the firewall near the master cylinder and may require different jetting of the 4-5-6 bank versus the 1-2-3 bank that gets air from the radiator fan constantly.... (In my car the jetting spread on the drag only engine is roughly 3 jets lighter on the 4-5-6 side and the secondary side is almost 5 jet sizing.) A heated turtle would help break down the fuel on the hyperpak, but when the manifold is cold it also may not hinder the puddling of fuel which will ride the walls in the longer runners and wash down the cylinder walls until the manifold warms up to vaporize this excess fuel (and a few ram tuned run will clear out that excess fuel as well... LOL). Next year I will be working on the EFI Hyperpak setup I have now that I have settled on the cam and compression, I will be very interested to see if the wet manifold benefit of ram tuning will disappear with the dry manifold and injection into the port.... |
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| Author: | lgu32 [ Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I have Dutra duals under my splitted Clifford shorty. So a true "Double triple" configuration! Fuel is shared with injectors and 4-5-6 department is a "slave" as MAP and O2 sensor are both in 1-2-3 side. Did not need any tuning after divider as the O2 sensor has been before at the same location just after Dutra cast manifold. |
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| Author: | B Body Bill [ Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Ok so I've been reading, thinking and planning. I also found a reproduction hyperpak which I'm very excited about. I know it's a big chunk if aluminum hanging way of the side of the motor and it needs heat but it's just freakin cool! I really would like to figure out how to properly set it up. I'd love to see some pictures of the plenum divider if possible. You mention casting flaws. How do I know if the manifold I'm getting has this flaw? How can these flaws be repaired? Any porting, polishing or port matching needed on this manifold? I found a company that makes a dual voltage heating pad that I will plug in at night to keep it warm. I have to determine the temperature I want to set the pad to. Once I unplug the pad and start the motor it will run of the electrical system. What would the proper temperature be to keep the manifold working well? The pad will attach to the bottom of the manifold. It will be like operating a diesel motor in the cold season. It's a 5" × 7" self stick pad. The cost is $185. They also have a 120v only heating pad for the bottom of the oil pan that goes to 100 degrees and turns of when that temperature is reached. Not sure if that's getting crazy but I figure since I'm plugging in a cord to keep the motor warm why not keep the oil warm too for an extra $80. I've also come to the reality that I need an overdrive gear. I'm considering the 200r4 with a good quality 2500 to 3000 stall speed converter. I found an 87 Buick Grand National 200r4 which is supposed to be one of the best 200r4s available. I'm not sure if there is electronic issues or if that early in time it was a simpler transmission electronically. Between the adapter, the transmission, the torque converter, the transmission cooler and adapting it into my car I wonder if I shouldn't be converting it to a T5 stick I'd love to hear from those of you who have done something similar. I really do want a lumpy cam. While I'm still not sure how to decipher the cam code yet I do know that what I want to run won't work with an automatic and a stock stall speed converter. I'm leaning heavy towards the explorer 8.8 3.73 posi disc brake rear. I know it's reasonable enough to buy parts for so that gear changes shouldn't be a big deal. Once I get the car together and decide on a transmission I can further decide on whether or not going to a steeper will be beneficial. The 3.73 should suffice nicely until such a time I'm very interested in the new FITECH fuel injection system. It's down to $795. Has anyone installed one on a /6? I need to pick up a later model electronic ignition and have it properly set up. I was told that one of the members offers that service. This is where I'm currently at. I'm hoping to have a proper plan before I get in to deep and waste money on something that doesn't work. Thanks gentlemen. I appreciate your help. Thank you in advance. Bill |
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| Author: | 65 dartman [ Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: I'm very interested in the new FITECH fuel injection system. It's down to $795. Has anyone installed one on a /6?
I have the basic FiTech set-up with timing control and the Fuel Command Center that the plan is to use on my 65 Dart wagon with an Offy 4 barrel manifold, header and 4 speed. Am no where near ready to install as I'm still working (slowly) on the body shell.
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| Author: | jcc [ Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A few other thoughts... |
Quote: Quote: seems to me the real benefit is mainly just a less disruptive air flow path because of the abrupt 90 degree turn at the floor of the intake.
I'm going to highly recommend reading David Vizard's How to Build Horsepower Vol.2 it deals with a lot of science behind intake manfolds....If most of the problem was in smoothing out the air flow then I would have to say that a few locals have actually seen better results out of the Clifford Shorty by adding a 3" spacer to it which adds a bit more path, plenum, and gives the stream of air/fuel emulsion more time to mix after it makes it past the throttle plates... The benefit comes down to a couple of items: limiting the plenum space available to a specific set of cylinders, which changes the rpm that the manifold is tuned to... not so critical in a shorty manifold since the 3 different length runners allow the manifold to function at different rpms... lengthening the manifold brings a new set of variables to the field, in that it changes the rpm that the manifold is 'effective' at, due to the wave mechanics of the pressure wave traveling between the carb and intake valve (ram tuning)... |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | It's... |
Quote: The Underlined passage above also is not clear to me.
There are a few guys locally that had added a 3" spacer between the manifold carb mounting flange and the carb and this gave a boost in performance over just mounting the carb to the manifold... a number of round table discussions we concluded that adding the stack gave the air fuel mix a better chance to stay mixed and get moved down the runners than the short distance and as you stated "crash" to the manifold floor and then get diverted to the runners.... smoothing out the process a bit....The hyperpak intake plenum floor is already slightly angled toward the head... Quote: separate intake pulses would be constantly changing, and making for very erratic/unstable flow velocity. A divider mention in that this thread would prevent that pulsing and keep air moving in a continuous direction.
Check out Vizard's book it will put this into perspective (pulse tuning, wave reflection, runner length, Helmholtz plenum, ram pipes...). I think we are talk similar ideas, but are looking at the same thing from two different perspectives (kind of like light as a wave and light as a particle).
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| Author: | Jase [ Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: It's... |
Quote: Quote:
There are a few guys locally that had added a 3" spacer between the manifold carb mounting flange and the carb and this gave a boost in performance over just mounting the carb to the manifold... a number of round table discussions we concluded that adding the stack gave the air fuel mix a better chance to stay mixed and get moved down the runners than the short distance and as you stated "crash" to the manifold floor and then get diverted to the runners.... smoothing out the process a bit.... The hyperpak intake plenum floor is already slightly angled toward the head... DI, Would there be any benefit to adding runner length to a stock 1bbl manifold, or a 1bbl manifold modified for a 2bbl mounted fore/aft? I don't need a 4bbl, but like the idea of a wall of torque just off idle.. |
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