Quote:
So what is different with this new gear design?
DD
Since you made a 3D model, I'm guessing shape changes on the teeth, but as a second guess also some special surface hardening...are you also dabbling in ion implantation, Sir Guru?
Brian
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| 14 Tooth Oil Pump Gear Testing https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65228 |
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| Author: | hyper_pak [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Quote: I picked up 2 NOS /6 oil pump gears off of feebay recently. The old blue and black MOPAR packaging.
So you got um!
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| Author: | '67 Dart 270 [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Quote: So what is different with this new gear design? DD Since you made a 3D model, I'm guessing shape changes on the teeth, but as a second guess also some special surface hardening...are you also dabbling in ion implantation, Sir Guru? Brian |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Well.... I do want to run some of these new gears thru a ferritic nitrocarburizing process.   I know, I am "messing" with everyone but here is another hint: The gear at the lower left is a factory gear and the lower right one is the new design. What is different? DD 
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| Author: | volaredon [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
One looks used and the other is new? Question/idea: with everything modern going to a roller lifter design, they have reduced/eliminated zinc as a component of motor oil, and I read about the wiping out cam lobes on break in is becoming more of an issue these days 1. Could this also have something to do with oil pump gears going bad? And 2. The last engine that I had a hand in in rebuilding was a '76 360 that went into my son's ramcharger. While we were in the process it was suggested that we have our cam of choice either "Nitride" or was it "Tuftride" treated to prevent cam break in issues. We went with a comp off the shelf cam but because it is for a Mopar application it more than doubled the price of the cam kit, whereas with Chevy or Ford they carry the equivalent cams already treated for only like a $25 upcharge. But anyway I'm asking if some similar treatment to these gears would possibly help or hurt the chances of not eating themselves if a place could be found to do such surface treatment? 2b. Or, if any other available surface treatment/hardening might be of benefit? 3. How would a drive gear of brass/bronze survive with all else about system design being equal? |
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| Author: | ProCycle [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
More teeth! |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
A Winner!!! Give that man a ceegar.  Stock = 13 tooth New design = 14 tooth DD |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
We have made 13T bronze gears in the past. Those work pretty good, especially with steel (roller) camshafts but they are "sacrificial" and only last a few thousand miles in a hard driven street car. The good news is that a bronze gear does not destroy the cam gear, when it wears-out or fails. DD 
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| Author: | Greg Ondayko [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
What is the advantage of one more tooth? Greg |
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| Author: | volaredon [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
I dunno if it would be an advantage but it would turn the pump slower. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
I'm confuzzed—either underthinking or overthinking. Seems to me we can't move the oil pump or the camshaft, so the oil pump drive pinion has to be of the one and only correct diameter. So by what kind of sorcery or magic trick do we make a pinion of the original diameter, with one more tooth, and still have it mesh properly with a given/unchanged cam worm? |
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| Author: | ProCycle [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Looks to me like the teeth are slightly thinner. That's what I saw first when I started looking closely. Allows more teeth at the same diameter. I've done this same thing with motorcycle speedometer drive gears to alter the calibration of the speedometer. I expect that the geometry isn't by-the-book perfect but the stock parts apparently aren't so perfect either. I guess you can't run a distributor with this setup... 
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
"It can not be done..." Yes, that is the answer I got from 2 gear engineers / designers. Luckily, #3 said Uhmmmm.... well if you do this & that and get lucky. That's the spirit... Game on! We had to change a lot of things but we made it fit, and "work", in the original foot-print and on the original cam gear. (thanks again to a lot of smart people that helped this project along) As noted, this is not a gear design you will find in your engineering "handbook"... not by a long shot.. This is why we spent over a year on doing plastic proto-types and soft metal prototypes, to get the geometry worked-out. I was really happy when a gear from the recent iron pre-production lot physically went thru the hole in the side of the block and ran smoothly on the cam, and showed a nice contact pattern. Now...Anyone want to be a "Ginnie pig" and run one? (I have already signed-up)  DD |
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| Author: | Rick Covalt [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Yes, I would be a test mule if you need me to. If it can be in a truck that only sees 4-5000 miles a year. Let me know if you want more details about the engine. Does it need to go on a brand new cam? My truck is currently running one of you pumps with the spray nozzle. |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Any vehicle, any set-up. All I ask is that you actually run the gear in the near future and give me feed-back. ( Oh, and accept the risk that it could fail  )You know, A truck application may-be best, especially if you can easily get the oil pump in & out, with-out a lot of trouble. Send me a PM. DD |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil Pump Gear Work |
Well, I'm impressed! I hope this works. (can't imagine why you wouldn't be able to run a distributor, though, ProCycle) |
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